Episode 159 | Julia Curran

Published September 27, 2022

Miranda Metcalf  02:58

Hi, Julia. How's it going?

Julia Curran  03:00

Hi, Miranda, it's going great. How are you?

Miranda Metcalf  03:04

I'm good, I'm good. I'm really pleased that we've got a chance to connect, and that I'm gonna get to learn a little bit more about your work. Because as I told you off air, the wonderful Carlos Hernandez tipped me off to your work. And so I'm really happy that he did, and we can get together and get to know each other a bit more. And we can share your story with Hello, Print Friend listeners.

Julia Curran  03:28

Oh, that's so sweet. Like I was also saying off air, it's such a delight and such an honor to be on this podcast. I'm really happy to be here with you today.

Miranda Metcalf  03:36

Yay! So as you may know, if you listen to an episode or two, I always ask my guests to introduce themselves by way of the questions of who you are, where you are, what you do.

Julia Curran  03:52

Sure! So my name is Julia Curran. I am currently living in Los Angeles, California. I'm from St. Louis, Missouri, and my husband and I just moved out here a couple of months ago. Loving it so far. And my background is in printmaking, but I make a lot of different things. I make paintings, and these mixed media sculptural altar pieces, but everything is sort of rooted in the practice of printmaking.

Miranda Metcalf  04:17

Mm-hmm. And so you said you're from St. Louis. 

Julia Curran  04:20

Yes. 

Miranda Metcalf  04:21

And what role did art play in that part of your life, growing up in that city?

Julia Curran  04:29

I would say that - I mean, like a lot of different artists, like most artists, really - and most people. Let me take that back. Most people. - I always made art, since I was a child. And I'm really lucky, I have the most wonderful, supportive, loving family one could possibly ask for. And so that was really nurtured in me from a young age. My parents were always very supportive, and my drawings were around the house since I started making them, and my parents are also very creative people themselves. They would gut rehab houses and just make them really beautiful, and they have a beautiful garden. And so yeah, I feel like that's sort of where that terrain comes from.

Miranda Metcalf  05:12

Yeah. So changing your world aesthetically, and putting aesthetic touches on it, sounds like it was something that was really intrinsic to just the formation of young Julia. 

Julia Curran  05:26

Absolutely.

Miranda Metcalf  05:27

And so then did you just always know, you were like, 'Art school, that's where I'm headed.'?

Julia Curran  05:33

So I sort of have two different threads of where I have always known that I'm headed, and that is making art, and also practicing healing in some way. As a child, I really wanted to be a veterinarian. But then we found out that I was deathly allergic to cats, which is so sad. 

Miranda Metcalf  05:49

Oh, no!

Julia Curran  05:51

So that didn't work out. But yeah, those are still sort of the threads that are running through my life. And I guess art has just always been a part of my life, whether it was making angsty collages in my room as a teenager, or tagging things in public with friends. That was definitely something - not anything too wild and crazy, but a little bit. And even making mix tapes for people, like mix CDs, and then drawing really elaborate designs on the covers. I went to a high school reunion a couple of years ago, and I had forgotten about that. And people actually came up to me and were like, 'Oh, I still have the CD that you drew for me freshman year!' So that was really sweet. Yeah, so art has just always kind of been there. And then printmaking, particularly, I have sort of the same origin story that a lot of people have. In undergrad, I went to Truman State University in Kirksville, Missouri, and Jim Jereb, who was the print professor at the time, was my drawing professor. And I just loved him. He was such a wonderful professor, and is such a wonderful person. And I was thinking about what I wanted my major to be, and my focus to be, and I was debating between painting and printmaking. And I went in the painting studio, and the painters were a little standoffish, kind of working by themselves. No shade to painters, because I'm also a painter. But then I walked into the printmaking studio, and what do I see? I see a disco ball hanging from the ceiling. I see a taxidermied flying squirrel hanging from the ceiling. I see students standing on the table and dancing, because they had just pulled a really great etching. You know? And I was like, 'Oh, yes, these are my people.'

Miranda Metcalf  07:31

Yeah! You're like, 'So this is where the party is! Okay!' Yeah.

Julia Curran  07:35

So of course, like most of us, the community aspect of printmaking is what really drew me in. I love to get people together, I love the act of gathering people and making something bigger than each one of us. Coming together and making big events, or just acting really silly, and the printmaking studio was a place that I could do that and have this really integral part in that community.

Miranda Metcalf  08:01

Yeah, absolutely. And I just love that juxtaposition between the - again, no shade to painters, who do get thrown under the bus from time to time by printmakers - but yeah, just that juxtaposition of the kind of serious... I'm imagining oil painting, here we are in the grand tradition of Renaissance masters, and then a taxidermied squirrel! Yeah, I think that's really fitting to kind of show the culture around both the mediums, yeah. 

Julia Curran  08:32

Exactly.

Miranda Metcalf  08:32

And so I'm really intrigued when you said that the two threads are art making and practicing healing, because I definitely feel like those two actions aren't mutually exclusive. And I know, particularly given some of the subject matter of your own work, I'm sure there's a thread through in that. I would guess that practicing healing still shows up for you in the work that you do now. Is that correct? 

Julia Curran  09:01

Yeah. How do you want to get there? Do you want to take the long route, or do you want me to go right to it? Because there's history and biographies...

Miranda Metcalf  09:08

Yeah! Let's take the scenic route! We're only at eight minutes. So we got time, Julia. Take me around the lake. 

Julia Curran  09:14

Okay, so we'll go around the lake. Our first stop is - just to give you a little background of myself, and just sort of my printmaking lineage - I have so many wonderful mentors, starting with Jim Jereb in undergrad, and then I had actually met Tom Huck of Evil Prints in St. Louis in high school. Our art teacher took our class there as a field trip. And it was one of the first times where I was like, Oh, yes, this is... here's another artist who... there's some crunchiness to it that is also present in my own work. And he was so nice to us. I was showing him my sketchbook, and he was like, 'Oh, that's cool!' You know, just very kind. And so after I had found the printmaking studio in undergrad, I thought, 'Hey, I'm gonna try to go find that guy again.' And so I hunted him down through his gallery, somehow his gallerist gave me his cell phone number, and so I just straight up called him!

Miranda Metcalf  10:11

I mean, as a gallerist, I'm happy for you, but like, slightly horrified!

Julia Curran  10:15

Well, I went to the gallery first, and I was like, 'Hey, I need a summer internship! And they were just like, 'We don't need anybody. But you know who does? Tom Huck.' 

Miranda Metcalf  10:16

Oh, okay, gotcha. Gotcha.

Julia Curran  10:19

And I was like, 'That's so funny! I've been trying to get in touch with him.' They were like, 'Here's his number.'

Miranda Metcalf  10:28

That's a little bit better than just like, 'Oh, you want the personal contact information of one of our artists? Here you go, strange person!' 

Julia Curran  10:35

Right, right!

Miranda Metcalf  10:35

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. Okay.

Julia Curran  10:37

So I called him, and Evil Prints needed an intern, and I showed up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. And I ended up working there for several years, became a shop manager. And again, talking about this experience of community, Evil Prints was this really... it was wild and crazy. And it was sort of like the wild wild west. His shop manager was described as "wrangling the shit tornado." And so it was really this exciting time. And what was so special about it is that with not a lot of resources, we were able to just make magic happen. We were able to make the impossible possible every day. So that was really special. And that was sort of like my entry point into the community of printmaking, really. That's when I first learned about SGC, was the one in St. Louis that we sort of put on a parallel conference to at the same time, which was really fun. I saw Sean Star Wars's work for the first time, and almost just - it knocked me over. I was like, 'Wow, this is amazing!' And the Amazing Hancock Brothers. It was just such this great baptism into the print world. Yeah. And so after that, I actually got a Fulbright Grant and moved to Paris, France, and again, sort of continued that path of finding different printmakers. I worked with a wonderful artist named Marc Brunier-Mestas, I worked with a really cool screenprint shop in Marseille called Le Dernier Cri and got to make really amazing screen prints.

Miranda Metcalf  11:42

So I just have a quick question, because when I was looking at your website, I saw that you'd gotten the Fulbright and got to spend that time in Paris. Did you find that same level of community in Parisian shops? Could you just show up and say, 'Hey, I'm a printmaker,' and the doors were open and they'd pour you a coffee - or I guess a brandy, depending on what time of day it is - and welcome you in? Is it there?

Julia Curran  12:33

So I found that. I didn't just walk into shops. I actually, John Hancock put me in touch with Marc Brunier-Mestas, who's an artist working out of a town called Clermont-Ferrand. And he's just this really trippy guy. And so he was really wonderful and welcoming, and invited me to come and stay with him and make some work with him. And I didn't even know what this guy looked like. I just hopped on a train and went down. I'm like, 'I hope he's nice!'

Miranda Metcalf  13:01

'Hope he's chill!' Yeah.

Julia Curran  13:02

Right! And I showed up at the train station, had no idea who I was looking for. And then I see this guy who's more or less bald and has a really, really long braided gray goatee, and then really long black pinky fingernails that were painted black. And I was like, 'Okay, this has to be him.' And so through him, I met all these other wonderful artists, both painters and printmakers and illustrators throughout France, and Marc and I actually put on a traveling exhibition showcasing French, American, and Mexican printmakers. And we got a grant, and we were able to have a couple of different shows. And at the same time, Ryan O'Malley and John Hancock, Tyler Krasowski, John Hancock's wife, another guy named Big Lou, they were all in Europe for the Printmaking In Festival in Estonia. And so they came, we were able to sort of invite them as visiting artists, and we just all traveled around and had that really great feeling of international print community there.

Miranda Metcalf  14:01

Oh, that's so wonderful to hear, because I've experienced it in Thailand before, just showing up - when Tim and I were living there, I had some connections there from the work I'd done with Kitikong Tilokwattanotai up in Chiang Mai, and C.A.P studio. So we had a bit of an in, but even then, the Thai printmakers were always just so excited just to welcome us. Just to have warm bodies in the shop who share the passion. And Thai is a very difficult language for someone who grew up [with] English as a native language. So we didn't speak very much of it, and they didn't speak a whole lot of English, but you know, that wonderful experience of bonding over a printing bed. And you don't need very many words to go through someone's flat file with them. 

Julia Curran  14:52

Absolutely.

Miranda Metcalf  14:52

And it's such a nice, nice way to feel really universal human connections with people who have chosen this off-the-beaten-path way to be in the art world. And so it's just, every time I hear [of] another place that can welcome printmakers under that umbrella, of just shared community and the sort of shared bondage of print, it makes me happy. So I'm really glad to hear that you had that experience in Paris, and being able to spot another misfit at the train station like that. Yeah.

Julia Curran  15:29

Exactly. And, really, that theme of connection, that's really what has guided me throughout my career as an artist and printmaker. Speaking of Ryan O'Malley, he's one of my dear beloved mentors. And I actually chose to go to grad school at Texas A&M Corpus Christi specifically to work with Ryan. Which was a great choice. And this is sort of where that healing thread comes back in. So like a lot of us, I had a really rough time in grad school. It was a good time, like, I learned a lot. It was like a very hard earned period of personal growth. And during this time, I was really, really ill. I have an autoimmune disease, called ulcerative colitis, that I've had since I was a child. And in the past, I would just sort of... it comes and goes in flares. And so in the past, I would have a big flare, I would kind of put my head down, get through it, get over it, take a bunch of steroids, take a bunch of medicine, almost have to have really horrible surgery, but get through it, and then stuff it all back down and be like, 'Okay, I'm fine,' and continue. And so this happened again in Corpus Christi. And so I experienced the stress of grad school, and then also being really ill, and not really having great access to medical care and doctors. And this was really where I decided that I had had enough in that this process of sort of stuffing everything down, putting my head down, and moving - just plowing through things - wasn't actually serving me. So at this point, I started working with a naturopathic practitioner, in addition to a gastroenterologist, and really opened up my view of health. And also the difference between a quick fix, or trying to quote-unquote "cure" something that's considered incurable, and healing. And so it was a really - it was a very intense time. It was sort of a long, long process that required not only a reevaluation of like, what I was eating, and lifestyle, and things like that, but also my connection to my own body. This experience really, again, it was like a several-years-long process. And it really allowed me the space to reconnect mind and body and emotions and feelings and cognitive aspects. And also, it made me realize how our society is really disconnected. Disconnected mentally and physically. Have you read the book "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk? Right, okay. It's a bestseller for a reason. Yeah. And so in the book, he talks about how we live in a dangerously beheaded society. And that really resonated with me. So I wasn't making work about this in grad school, I was still at the point of like, you know, 'No, I don't want to talk about this, it's either too personal or it's not interesting. No one cares about me.' You know, 'I've got to make like work about big important things.' And that wasn't the right choice. It wasn't the way to go. And so after grad school, I really gave myself the time, like a couple of years, to just process that whole experience, and then started making work that was sort of combining those threads, like, the art and the healing.

Miranda Metcalf  18:14

Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's so much in there. In that whole story. And so much I really connect with, and really admire you taking on making work about, because in the United States of America, it is sort of an unpopular opinion that we should pay attention to anything from the neck down. It's... I don't know if it's puritanical, I don't know if it's sociological, if it's some combination of both. But it's this sense of -

Julia Curran  19:38

Captialist, it's white supremacist.

Miranda Metcalf  19:39

Capitalist, yeah, it's patriarchal. Like, it's all of these big systems in play that, of course, are rooted in the particularly horrendous history of the formation of this country.

Julia Curran  19:54

It's seeing bodies as a means of production.

Miranda Metcalf  19:59

Yeah, and that's -

Julia Curran  20:00

Like, an amalgamation of different, separate parts, when in fact, that's not how our body works. All of our systems are connected, we are all connected to each other, we are connected to our environments, etc, etc.

Miranda Metcalf  20:14

Totally, totally. And that particular way that we have this relationship with bodies, and health, of like, if your body can't be the perfect capitalist worker, it is your fault, it is because of decisions that you've made in your life, and therefore, we don't need to take care of you. So it's like, as soon as you sort of, for one reason or another, fall out of peak production, then you have no value. I mean, it's something that you can see in a lot of the attitudes around the COVID-19 restrictions. I mean, it came really, really forward in all of that, and the dialogues that people were having - very publicly, and without shame! - about like, 'Oh, only old people are dying.' 

Julia Curran  21:04

Right!

Miranda Metcalf  21:04

'Only people with this BMI are dying.' Like, this sort of thing that's just like, they're not falling into my perception of production. And so therefore, I don't need to feel responsible for them just as another human being.

Julia Curran  21:19

Right. And that's the problem with ableism, is that one day, we'll - if we're lucky enough - we'll live long enough to experience disability. 

Miranda Metcalf  21:27

Yeah, yeah. 

Julia Curran  21:28

And so it affects us all!

Miranda Metcalf  21:30

Right! Yeah, it's truly like, you either get hit by a meteor at 28, or you will see your level of production go down. You know? And so I really connected with what you're [saying] about your own work, when you were touching on those points, because it is a huge issue. And as you said, it has these threads into other major destructive forces in our country, and of course, in global perceptions as well. And so I guess I'd be really curious to hear a little bit about how, as you said, you realized that you were in the space to start making work about it. And art can be such an intellectually driven process. Art can exist - even though the physical making for most works of art, it happens with the body - the perception, and the dialogue, and the culture around the ways in which your production is going to be received often happens from the neck up. So what was your process when you were like, okay, how do I take on getting at this concept that's very obviously important and personal, and also sort of knowing there might be a little bit of an uphill battle in terms of the way in which people receive art objects?

Julia Curran  22:06

Well, I started by just trying to allow myself to make bad work. And I made a bunch of... like, I made a bunch of bad work! For a really long time! And got that out of my system. But I also feel like everything you make is a step towards something else. So yeah, making a bunch of bad work was a big part of that. And doing a lot of writing. My sketchbook is just absolutely completely chock full of writing, connecting personal experiences to more universal experiences, and how the personal is political, and vice versa. So that definitely plays a big part in my practice. And also, I want to say, teaching has been a big part of this as well. I've been adjuncting for quite a long time now, and have found that that can also be a spiritual practice, just like art, where... I feel like art and human connection, really, art and meaningful connection - whether that's through teaching, or - because I think teaching can be healing, too - I think that can be like a homecoming. That can help us get in touch with this untouchable part of ourselves that makes us feel alive. And that's really profound. And so teaching has also been - and really, connecting with others - has been a big part of my process. And really, this focus on helping myself and other people sort of bridge that, that beheadedness, that mind and body gap, and kind of help myself and others get in touch with these fleshy, tender, soft parts of ourselves that have been hardened... because of life.

Miranda Metcalf  24:40

That's such a beautiful way of putting that, and something I really connect with, and how I feel like my personal arc has mirrored that. Coming of age in this society as someone who's socialized female, and showing those soft, squishy bits, being shut down or attacked or undermined, over and over and over again. And then I think a natural survival mechanism, as you say, is to harden those. Because you're like, Well, every time I've shown this, it's hurt. So I can't do that anymore. And then, entering my mid-30s to late 30s, recovering those. That process of saying, Oh, these have been buried, but they're a part of me that's very important. And how do I now show them to the world in a way that keeps all of us safe? Or in a way that's okay with it not being safe? Yeah. What is your process around that?

Julia Curran  26:02

Well, I definitely look to others who have done that before me for strength and inspiration. Definitely women surrealist artists, Louise Bourgeois, Frida Kahlo - even though she didn't really like being considered a surrealist artist - Leonora Carrington, Eileen Agar, Remedios Varo. Like, these are artists who also were touching on the same subjects. I'm really thinking about intuition, and archetype, and myth, and so that definitely is a big part of that process as well. Doing a lot of meditation, doing just... yeah, I don't know! Doing a lot of writing and sketching, I do a lot of sketching. I try to just sketch out whatever idea I have, and then put it away. And then I come back to it, and I'm always combing through my sketchbook for little nuggets. But yeah, that's definitely a part of that process as well. A lot of reading. A lot of listening. I listen to so many podcasts in my studio all the time.

Miranda Metcalf  26:57

Yeah. Do you have any recommendations for podcasts that sort of touch on this? If someone's hearing this, and they're like, Oh, my god, Julia, you're blowing my mind right now! How do I begin to get in touch with this? What do you listen to?

Julia Curran  27:11

So my favorite podcast to listen to is On Being with Krista Tippett. Yeah, it's, I mean, if you're just starting on that one, I think they have like 20 years behind them as a radio program, and so you can't go wrong. And what they do is they really just touch on the essence of like, what it means to be, to exist, and be alive in our human forms. And they talk with astrophysicists, and physicians, and artists, and poets. And yeah, that's definitely something that I'm playing all the time.

Miranda Metcalf  27:42

Awesome. Yeah. And I listen to it as well, and they actually release the unedited version and the edited version at the same time, which is really interesting. Because I'm in love with Mary Oliver, and you get this whole experience of it all being edited, and then I loved it so much, when I went back to listen to it again, I listened to the unedited version. And you hear Mary being like, kind of prickly about where they're setting up the room! And it's just so interesting, because then you get this other element of it as well. Yeah, that's a beautiful one for sure. And so in terms of how these explorations show up aesthetically in your work, what kind of imagery do you draw on? And how is it interacting with its environment to start to get into the messy, squishy, emotional bits?

Julia Curran  28:36

So right now, I'm making a series of paintings. I actually was just at a really great residency called Wassaic Project in New York this summer, and in a couple of days, I'm heading to another residency called Jentel in Wyoming. And so I've been making all of these studies of these Mother Nature monsters. And so sort of these... how do I want to describe these? They're these female figures, sometimes they're not necessarily one gender, and they're sort of godlike, but they're not benign. They're not entirely benign. And I'm thinking a lot about natural cycles of life and death and life. And thinking of how these Mother Nature monster figures sort of personify - they're enacting these cycles. So you see them underground. You see them consuming detritus. You see them making weather happen. You see them interacting with different systems in nature. And so I'm really playing around with what a friend of mine just described as the "Earth to body stretch," sort of the transformation between where our bodies begin and end, and where the external world begins and ends, and... yeah, so I'm really thinking about that. I'm really thinking about texture, and also, I guess, incorporating printmaking processes into painting. And so for the past two years or so, I've been making these sculptural altar pieces that have doors that open and close, very Bosch-like, and using a lot of collage. And so using screenprints that I made, and woodcuts, and cutting back into them, and collaging them into these paintings. And I'm definitely a maximalist in my aesthetic, and so right now I'm practicing the act of holding back a little bit. So instead of having texture everywhere, thinking about selective texture with paper, and selective color, and just trying to play with restraint a little bit.

Miranda Metcalf  30:35

Yeah. As you were talking, it occurred to me that, especially with bodies, that connection between creation, of course, is in there - as you said, you phrased it Mother Earth, right? Like this idea of -

Julia Curran  30:53

Yeah, Mother Nature monsters. 

Miranda Metcalf  30:54

Mother Nature monsters. There you go. Yeah, yes, Mother Nature, and the creative force of the uterus, and how it is still so messy, too, right? The conception is messy, birth is messy. And that messiness of the human body is something that we're so desperate to deny. So for me, there's something in there about that connection between the process in which the human species reproduces and multiplies, and the denial of the essence of the bodies that create it and the essence of the bodies that are then born. It's just a weird thing, where it's like, life only truly happens within these few "sterile" years, right? 

Julia Curran  31:55

Right. 

Miranda Metcalf  31:55

Yeah, yeah. That's so interesting.

Julia Curran  31:59

Right now, I just completed a painting that's one of these Mother Nature monsters that's living below a lake, and she's drinking the lake. And then she's peeing out lava. And it's going up on the sides and coming out as two volcanoes. And so I'm trying to connect what we consider abject, that are just normal bodily functions, to these natural cycles.

Miranda Metcalf  32:21

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think that has a connection a bit to performance art, which I know you've also dabbled in. I've seen some products of more performative elements of your practice. But you know, my husband is also an artist. He's got his MFA. And so we go to art events, and we see performance art, and - with, again, no shade to performance art - we're always like, 'Fluids and self harm. There it is again.' But I think that's one of the things, like, performance art is like, "Spit is gross only once it leaves your mouth." Like, where it starts to sort of question the way in which we interact with bodies, when, of course, bodies are the medium through which the art's being produced. So I think this is a great opportunity, and a great long form segue to say, tell us a little bit about the performance aspect of some of your practice.

Julia Curran  33:18

Sure. So it's been a long time since I've done performance. I really only dabbled in it in grad school. But it was a really special time. So my MFA thesis exhibition in 2015 - again, a long time ago, seven years ago - was like a community affair. And so it was this humorous, satirical work about toxic masculinity. And it involved these half-men, half-donkey figures - the origin story behind that is that when I turned 18, as a joke, my friend gave me a Playgirl magazine, which is very silly and heteronormative. And just very silly. And the centerfold was called "Party Boy," and it was this man sticking his dick into cakes. And -

Miranda Metcalf  34:00

I mean, can I think of anything hotter?

Julia Curran  34:04

Endless jokes with that one! And so I took some of that imagery and created this character called Party Boy, and he sort of represented these different hypermasculine, toxic masculine tropes. And Ryan was encouraging me to consider performance art, and make it come alive. I made this big 20 foot painting that, again, was very Bosch-like, and I was able to convince eight of my graduate school friends to each take on a different persona of Party Boy. Like, these different toxic masculine personas. So we had the frat boy, we had the roid rager, we had the war monger. We had - Lars Roeder was wearing a golden Speedo and burst out of a cake.

Miranda Metcalf  34:47

Lars, the ultimate Party Boy!

Julia Curran  34:48

Lars is the ultimate Party Boy, yeah. And so it was really a lovely experience. I don't know if it was good performance art, but it was a wild time. We had a lot of fun. There was a ton of weed. Ryan O'Malley put together this printmaking event that weekend, so there [were] a lot of people in town, the gallery was totally packed. It was at this great space in Corpus Christi called K Space. They're wonderful, wonderful people who run that gallery. And yeah, we just... we pulled it off. And it was really fun. And leading up to that, since the work was really ambitious, this really huge painting, it was all screen printed collage material that I had - I mean, I just would have weekly print parties in the print shop, and I'd buy everybody beer and pizza. And everyone would screenprint with me and cut out all these collage pieces, and make masks, and it was like - that's, again, going back to this idea of community and printmaking. It was just so, so much fun. Yeah, so again, I don't know if the performance - if that's something I'm going to continue, at least that piece - but the experience was great. I love bringing people together to do silly things. And that was really, really a lovely time.

Miranda Metcalf  35:59

Yeah, and it's - I could see it finding its way back into your practice. Just because of the embodied nature of your work, and the corporeal experience that performance might be, you know?

Julia Curran  36:13

And some mischief, as well.

Miranda Metcalf  36:16

Yeah, the Moxie, and the playfulness, and all of that energy, for sure. I'm curious if you've ever thought about - not that the - so this is me, like, trying to bring these threads together into this idea I was sort of having about your work, and I hope it makes sense. But it has to do with bodies, and the messiness of the existence of bodies, both in their reproduction and also in their decay. And in their ability to... hmm.. it has to do with bodies, and how it's like, anything they do that involves creation is messy. Or reproduction is messy. And that's sort of what the body does, whether it's growing pubic hair, right? Like, oh, no, the body is off doing something right now. Or sex, or death, or various areas of disability that, as you said, is an inevitability with those of us who are lucky enough to age. And somewhere in there that I'm trying to get to, that's been floating around in this amniotic sac of my mind right now, is printmaking as reproduction. And printmaking as messy. 

Julia Curran  37:38

Oh! Yes!

Miranda Metcalf  37:38

And printmaking as a means of reproduction that gets complicated and uncontrollable. 

Julia Curran  37:47

Yes! I love that. I'm stealing that for my next proposal I write. Thank you.

Miranda Metcalf  37:52

Oh, good! Yeah. And so it just seems sort of fitting that part of your process really involves this messy method of reproduction as well. Yeah. It's interesting.

Julia Curran  38:12

Yeah. I love that you pointed that out. Because that is what's so fun about printmaking, like, the actual process, is the experimentation. And trying different avenues, and making a mess. And yeah, I've definitely been told a few times that I need to clean it up when I'm printing. I have messy fingers all the time. But yeah, that's a really great connection between those two. Thank you for pointing that out.

Miranda Metcalf  38:39

Yeah, yeah. Good. I'm glad. I was, like I said, I didn't even have a question. But it just was something that my brain couldn't let go of when thinking about coming to understand your practice, and thinking about how it's happening. So I'm excited to see the next project, that printmaking reproduction. So I think, as I mentioned to you when I first sent you the email, that we're doing this Outlaw October in the Hello, Print Friend universe. And it's interesting, because I feel like the Outlaws were a side of the printmaking culture that I became aware of pretty early in my own indoctrination into contemporary printmaking. It's something that I think is - as I've come to understand - has to do with taking printmaking out a bit from its academic ivory tower. 

Julia Curran  39:30

Yes.

Miranda Metcalf  39:31

[That's] sort of the strongest definition I can think of. But as someone who is on the official list of Outlaw Printmakers - which, as far as I know, exists on the Wikipedia page - I don't know how else to find it! - what does it sort of mean to you to be under that umbrella, and what you think of as being a part of this side of contemporary printmaking?

Julia Curran  39:56

Since one of my first experiences in printmaking was working at Evil Prints for a long time, and getting to work with some of my favorite artists, like Dennis McNett and John Hancock and Sean Star Wars, is great, you know, that feels really good because I appreciate their aesthetics so much. And I love the way that you described it as getting printmaking out of the ivory tower of academia. No shade to academia or learning. But traditionally, printmaking is something, because of the expense and just the cumbersome-ness of it, that it has an easier time existing in institutions than outside of them. And so what I love about the Outlaw Printmakers and that spirit is making the impossible possible. Making printmaking happen outside of an institution. And I'm all about being outside of institutions. So that, yeah, that part feels really good. I don't know, I don't really... like, I feel like a very peripheral part of that group. So what we were saying earlier about the Outlaws, this sort of anti-institution sentiment, is - oh, man, I don't know if I want to even say anti-institution. Because we're at a moment of crisis where we need trust in institutions. 

Miranda Metcalf  41:05

Right!

Julia Curran  41:05

But, you know... questioning if rules are of service or not. And sort of existing outside of a norm. And really, when you think about it, existing outside of this Judeo-Christian norm. That is part of the Outlaws and what makes them so special, and what makes me happy to be associated with that movement. But it's true, my work is a lot different. I have a couple different thoughts about this. First, that rebellious spirit, that's something that's really strong within me. And that mischievous spirit is something that's really strong within me, and within my work. And so that's one way that I really resonate with that young essence, as you're saying, or that typically considered more "masculine" part. That's definitely a part of me as well. And, I also feel like - I jokingly say this after working at Evil Prints for many years - I'm not cut out to work for anybody. Let's just say it like that. I'm only cut out to work for myself. I devote my life to molding it around my freedom, never working for anybody, but especially never working for a man ever again. And so sometimes I feel like what I've been able to do in my work is sort of take this really wonderful rebelliousness that's my printmaking lineage, and turn it into my own. I mean, I feel like my work always has a thread of making fun of toxic masculinity. And I definitely, a couple times that I have shown with the Outlaw Printmakers, in different panel talks, I have been able to humorously comment on some of the gender dynamics that were happening that weren't necessarily balanced. To put it nicely. While still embracing, like, the wonderful parts of the Outlaw Printmakers. And so... yeah, so I feel like my own work... yeah, I don't know if I answered that question.

Miranda Metcalf  41:13

Yeah, for sure! And what actually is occurring to me is that I think when people are critical of the Outlaw Printmaker ethos, it has to do with some of the things we've talked about. Like, the perception of toxic masculinity, the perception of the "boys' club," that kind of thing. And there's Kathryn Polk, there's Ericka Walker, there's Sue Coe, there's other women, amazing, amazing artists.

Julia Curran  43:14

Amazing artists who I love so much. I have a wall behind me, if you can see that.

Miranda Metcalf  43:41

I do recognize it, actually! Yeah!

Julia Curran  43:43

And so I think when we're talking about traits that are considered, like, typically masculine or typically feminine, I mean, it's 2022. Come on. I think we should all know by now that we can embody many different traits and not have to have ourselves, or as artists, our work be quote-unquote "feminine" or quote-unquote "masculine." And so I feel really good about, like, sometimes my work is a little aggressive. And even though it's about greater topics of finding that softness, and embracing our fleshy and abject existence, my work is not benign. It's not benign. There's an element of revenge in these figures. Like, a print I recently completed at Grafik House in St. Louis is one of these Mother Nature monster figures who's literally underground, and then eating corpses out of coffins, and then shitting out their bones. And then there's new plants that are growing. And so that is, like, that image is a bit aggressive. But at the same time, I feel like the moment we're living through is aggressive. And I feel like the antidote to that is getting more in touch with... like, allowing ourselves to be soft. Allowing ourselves to be soft through connection, and through beauty, and embracing that aspect of ourselves.

Miranda Metcalf  45:18

I believe that human beings want connection, and I believe that printmakers want connection. 

Julia Curran  45:26

Oh, absolutely.

Miranda Metcalf  45:27

And that sometimes those of us who wear the strongest armor are those of us who want it the most.

Julia Curran  45:38

Of course! Of course, absolutely. Absolutely. Those of us who wear the strongest armor are those of us who want and need connection the most. Absolutely. And I also wanted to mention, too, when we're talking about our soft and squishy bits, and like, this tenderness, I feel like that's also where strength lies. In embracing that part of ourselves, and in embracing each other as well. 

Miranda Metcalf  46:01

Yes. 

Julia Curran  46:02

Recently, when I was in Wassaic, I - God, it was this amazing time! It was like being at adult art summer camp. And I had two fabulous roommates, one who's a printmaker, Joanna Kambourian, in Australia, and another who's a sculptor named Lauren Ruth. And we would just sit down and have nights where we fleshed out each other's artists statements. And when we were talking about my work, I kept saying, sometimes I feel a lot of shame about my work. Because - we all do - but because I have a part of me that has this fear that I'm always too much. I talk too much, I have too many needs, I need connection too much, my work is too much. And so that's like - when we're really getting into these vulnerabilities and these tender parts of ourselves - when I was having this discussion with my fellow artists, the conclusion we came to was to find that part of you, that little part of you that you feel shame about, and that makes you feel like you just want to throw up and you want to exit your body and leave the room, [and] to follow that and use that as a guide in your work. And that is where the strength will come from. 

Miranda Metcalf  47:16

Mmm... I just want to be like, 'And, scene.' Like, there's nothing I can add to that. It's perfect!

Julia Curran  47:23

But I feel like that, to me, is a daily practice of my work. That's what I was saying. That's where art, for me, is also this really spiritual practice. Because for me, my art practice is visually processing internal work, if that makes sense. Not only internal, because I don't want to make it sound like it's all art therapy, because it's not. But it's visually processing both internal work and external connections, if that makes sense. And actually, something I wasn't sure if I was going to mention or not, but thinking of these two paths in my life of art and healing, I actually am currently going back to school to become a therapist in private practice.

Miranda Metcalf  48:13

Shut the front door! So am I!

Julia Curran  48:16

Wait - what? No way! Oh, my God, you're gonna be so good. You are gonna be so good!

Miranda Metcalf  48:24

So are you! Shut up!

Julia Curran  48:27

I love that! Oh, my God! I love that! Girl, I am so fucking sick of being an adjunct teacher. It's like being an Uber driver professor! I'm over it! And that's half of my job, is like, 'Hey, why didn't you come to class today? Oh, okay. All right, let's get you to therapy. Let's get you to Academic Resource Center. Let's get you to the food bank.' I'm like, fuck this! I'm gonna go make some money and be a therapist!

Miranda Metcalf  48:50

Oh, my god. That's so - like, I haven't talked about it on air at all. Because I'm worried people are gonna be like, 'Oh, no, is she not gonna be in the arts?' Right? But it's like -

Julia Curran  48:59

Exactly! You're the first person in the art world that I'm telling that's not Ryan O'Malley or Lisette Chavez.

Miranda Metcalf  49:08

And so one of the things when you were talking about connection that I wanted to say is, the parts of ourselves that we hate the most, that we have the most shame [about], are the gateways into connection with people.

Julia Curran  49:20

Yes! Yes! Oh, my god. Absolutely!

Miranda Metcalf  49:23

I just was like, 'Whew!' Because there's nothing stronger than vulnerability, right?

Julia Curran  49:29

I was teaching this class at Webster University in St. Louis. And I was invited by one of the professors who's been there a long time. Her name is Carol Hudson. She's a gem of a person. Oh, my god. She's a performance artist and draftsperson and painter. She does everything. And so she's been teaching this class called Creative Strategy for thirty years. And she was kind of ready to step back from it, and wanted to hand it off to, like, she wanted to hand pick who she hands it off to. So she approached me, and then one of my colleagues who's an excellent painter named Marissa Adesman. And she approached both of us, and she was like, 'Hey, I want you guys to teach this class.' And what it is... it's hard to describe. It's been described as "bungee jumping for your brain," but it's like a foundations class for freshmen that's all about - I don't want to say it's art therapy. So Carol is also an art therapist, and a professor. And so this class, it's not art therapy, but it has that as its foundation. And it's all about, like, how do you... come up with good ideas, and good content, by allowing yourself to be vulnerable in your work? So we do - and what's exciting about it is that every semester, the goal is that 50% of the course has to be completely new. And so it's a lot of work to teach. But it's also really fun, like, I became best friends with my colleague Marissa because of teaching this class together. And we do all sorts of different wild assignments. And we also do improv theater exercises. Like, we're looking at Augusto Boal's "Theatre of the Oppressed," and how to think about power dynamics through improv exercises. And it's very much about getting in your body, and building resilience, I want to say. And so teaching that class was such a formative experience for me in merging my art practice with this interest I have in healing. And I think that when you're a professor, or when you're an art professor, healing can take the form of helping people find their voice. And helping people find a safe space to be themselves. I can't tell you how many times I've had students in other classes come to me with a crisis happening in their lives, or a crisis of identity, or any sort of experience like that. And I'm like, Why don't you come to the print shop? Or whatever, come and hang out in whatever class I'm in, usually I invite them to the print shop. And then it becomes this great, supportive, nurturing community space where people can blossom into who they really are. And so being able to experience that in my years as a professor, both teaching printmaking and teaching even just drawing - I teach drawing from the perspective of like, 'Hey, we're not Rembrandt here! We don't care about that! We're just gonna get in our bodies and witness and observe.' That really led me to this choice during the first pandemic lockdowns of, I just can't be a part of this exploitative system of adjuncting anymore. It's not - like, I can't do this my whole life. And I don't even think I want to be a full time professor. Like, it wasn't happening for me. I put out a bunch of applications. And I think it wasn't happening because I don't actually want it. And so I made the decision to sort of, in what I consider continuing that aspect of my art practice, become a therapist. And I said this earlier, this is part of my goal as an artist, is to build my life around my freedom. And not only my freedom, but also the freedom of others as well. To build my life around freedom, whether that's finding a way that I don't have to work for somebody else, and also finding a way to help other people find their own voices. And either touch people through the work I make, or through a therapy session, or through whatever, all of these different modalities of therapy. Experiencing dramatic play, all these different things that are helping us to get in touch with those fleshy bits and those vulnerable bits, which is where the strength lies.

Miranda Metcalf  53:37

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. All of it! Yes. So I am really getting a huge personal... I don't know what to call it, like, comfort from this conversation.

Julia Curran  53:57

Aw! Cute.

Miranda Metcalf  53:57

Because I felt really drawn to go back to school to become a therapist myself. And that's what I'm doing. In case I cut out the part where I scream earlier, maybe I am, maybe I'm not, just gonna make some tape for that just in case. And I've been wrestling with this anxiety of like, I know this connects to the art world. I know it does. And when I am having transcendent art experiences, it feels like transcendent therapeutic experiences. They feel like they're getting to the same place, which is what I like to call the problem of being a human. 

Julia Curran  54:35

Yes! Yes. 

Miranda Metcalf  54:37

And I just don't know exactly how they're going to kiss. I'm like, 'How am I gonna make this come together?' And just finding, in you, someone who's on the same path, and it feels like you have answered that question. That's just so beautiful to hear that. I really am having quite an emotional response to it, because it really is something that, in my own personal lockbox of my brain, has been a problem I've been trying to solve. And it's a really, it feels like there's a thread throughout what I am drawn to in this world, and whether it's Zen Buddhism or artwork, or therapy...

Julia Curran  55:24

Poetry.

Miranda Metcalf  55:25

Or poetry, oh my gosh, Mary Oliver, who were chatting about earlier. You know, and we're told that these things have to live separately, but there is this through line. And I'll be in a lecture from a Roshi, and it will feel like therapy, and I'll be in therapy, and it will feel like art, and I'll be in art, and it will feel like meditation. I feel like we're just, I'm sitting in a tree, and I'm trying to cut off the branches when I feel like I have to choose, you know? And so it's just really beautiful to hear the ways in which you have found that through line, and in a really wonderful way to articulate it as well. 

Julia Curran  56:11

Thank you! Having this discussion with you is so important for me, too, because I wasn't even sure if I was going to say that on this podcast. Because of some of the messages that I've gotten throughout my career - that I think we all do - that real artists gut it out.

Miranda Metcalf  56:29

Yeah, yeah.

Julia Curran  56:29

Like, oh, you're only a real artist if you bartend, or if you are an art handler, or if you adjunct and do a part time, low wage job that you can't fucking live on!

Miranda Metcalf  56:42

If you work at a nonprofit for $35,000 a year. 

Julia Curran  56:45

Yeah! Like, fuck that shit! Fuck that! Sorry, you can take out all the F-bombs if you need to.

Miranda Metcalf  56:52

F-bombs are appropriate in this situation, though! Because it is the "art is suffering..." and that's not to say that there's not suffering in art, but with the narrative that you're not doing it right unless you're giving up everything else. 

Julia Curran  57:06

That's ridiculous! That's ridiculous. And I really, like - thank god for my amazing, beautiful husband Romain. I was really struggling with this a lot. Like, when I was applying, I was just riding the roller coaster of, 'This feels right! I'm gonna do this! I can do it!' I know I can build my life to where I have plenty of time for my art practice and plenty of time for therapy, to be a therapist and live a good life - well, let's say, have some financial stability.

Miranda Metcalf  57:33

Yeah! Yeah, we're not greedy. I just would like healthcare, honestly.

Julia Curran  57:37

Right! And then there were these dark times, where I'm just like, 'Well, this is me giving up.' Like, this is me giving up, I'm not good enough... somewhere deep down inside me, I know that I'm not good enough, and so I'm going to do this thing instead and give up. And Romain, my husband, there were a couple of times where he sat me down and he was like, 'Julia, you make work every single day.' Like, I'm doing like hours and hours of homework, and then I'm going in my studio and I'm making work. He was like, 'You're still showing all the time, you're still applying, you're still doing -' like, I'm literally about to do a residency. They don't know that I'm a student. Because like, no students allowed, or whatever. I'm going to be secretly doing my homework and then going to my studio. Like, I'm making it work. And he sat me down, and he was like, 'You have more than one talent. And it would be bad for the world if you don't pursue this.'

Miranda Metcalf  58:31

Yes, Romain! Yes!

Julia Curran  58:32

I know that sounds very grandiose with me saying it, but he's... such a beautiful, sweet person. And yeah, he really has helped pulled me back and reminded me, 'Hey, you're multi-dimensional, baby! You got this!' So I'm really, like, the further - I'm halfway through my program - the further I get into it, the more I'm able to embrace that. Because I'm like, oh, look - and, sorry, something else that - I have a lot of thoughts coming up. Something else that has happened is that since I made that addition - I don't want to say switch - but since I pivoted away from adjuncting towards becoming a therapist, it helped me give up, like, I let go of some of these, like what we were saying, these toxic narratives about being the struggling artist. Like, you're not legitimate if you're not like living on cigarettes and beer, and you know, whatever, not sleeping. Because that was a lot of grad school, was like, who can not sleep most? You know, I have health problems. I can't live like that. 

Miranda Metcalf  59:33

Yeah! 

Julia Curran  59:35

Once I kind of gave up some of that narrative, things started to open up for me in the art world, too. I got some really good shows, and sold some work through good galleries, and got these residencies, and I'm getting shortlisted for these big prizes and stuff that I wouldn't have imagined even a year ago. And so that keeps reminding me, kind of going back to this discussion we were having about following that shame, so it was kind of like, okay, well, the shame part of that was that maybe I'm a failure. And that's why I'm doing this. So I'm like, you know what, okay, I'm gonna go with that. And instead it's like, oh, no, not at all, it's the complete opposite. Look at you expanding your world. And now more opportunities are opening up to you.

Miranda Metcalf  1:00:21

Yeah. And I think there's something in there for me about how limiting identities are.

Julia Curran  1:00:31

Yes. 

Miranda Metcalf  1:00:32

And how the more we get locked into an identity, the less expansive we can be. And the more we say, I am an important person, because X, Y, and Z, I'm an important person because I have these degrees, because I have this title, because it says "Gallery Director," whatever it is, right? "Artist." The more we sort of cling to those in the Buddhist wheel of suffering and desire, the worse off we are. And so I think this idea of, I can't go and do this other thing because I am an artist, you're directly experiencing the fruits of letting go of "identities" in the sense of the labels that we have in this world as "identity" in the sense of Julia's Being with a capital B. And being able to think that what we actually are is so much larger than any identity. That you can tap into that when you let go of them. Not to - if I just lost half the audience with that level of woo, I apologize.

Julia Curran  1:01:57

That's not woo. It's not like we're talking about crystals, and I don't know, whatever perverted capitalist version of spirituality is popular these days. That's real. That's real. Like, sometimes - I don't even know how to add on to that. Yes, I hear you. Yeah, that's real. You're just running on a hamster wheel. 

Miranda Metcalf  1:02:14

Yeah. And I think for me, I actually had a breakthrough this weekend when I was talking to a spiritual advisor, thinking about, okay, I'm in the arts, I've had this fancy job, I've worked in Bangkok, I've worked in Sydney, my life is fancy, and how much that identity, for me, was a balm for being an awkward kid that no one liked. I could look at it, and I could be like, Oh, check it out! I must be special because of all these things I have done, because of these fancy titles I've had, because of these fancy dresses from Bangkok-based designers that I'm the only one in Santa Fe with. Like, all of that, again, that identity drama, was like this protective shield. And I didn't want to let go of it. But then I also was reaching out for the identity of therapist as well. I wanted to, like - and actually, we can't - like, it's not healthy to do either. It's like, if you just sort of let one protective shell of identity subsume with another, you're in the same spot. You actually have an advance. You're on the treadmill, right? Yeah, yeah. And so I think that breaking down the barriers between them, which is what you're doing, that helps dissolve the identities that come with each one of them. And then you get to be not the suffering struggling artist, and not the brilliant transcendent therapist, you are Julia. Which is like, that's the best. That's the best you could be, right? Because is that is your being.

Julia Curran  1:04:05

Oh, that's very, very sweet of you. And I wanted to just give you a little virtual hug when you were talking about being an awkward child. I was listening to another episode of On Being a couple weeks ago. And it was an interview with John O'Donoghue, who was an Irish poet, and I think he was a priest for a while. And there's a line in his interview where he talks about how everybody is an ex-baby. Which is so beautiful, right? Like, it's so funny and it's so beautiful. And just the things that we do, or how our personalities are formed and the paths that we take, are like survival mechanisms, right? And then I guess the work of being an adult is to embrace that baby that we once were, like, the vulnerabilities and pain and all, and tenderness and preciousness and all, and then sort of sift through what of our identity is working for us, and what do we need to let go? 

Miranda Metcalf  1:05:03

Yeah. That kind of primal love and stewardship that most people feel when looking at a small human, it's like, you don't have to play by those rules anymore once that human grows up. 

Julia Curran  1:05:17

Yes, yes!

Miranda Metcalf  1:05:18

That's what I'm trying to get at. Yeah.

Julia Curran  1:05:20

How can we extend that same tenderness towards ourselves? And towards others as well?

Miranda Metcalf  1:05:26

Totally. Totally. Julia, I don't even know where to go from here. I feel like we've just done it! We just had an interview! If you liked today's episode, we have a Patreon where you can help us keep the lights on and get bonus content, like Shoptalk Shorts, where our editor Timothy Pauszek digs deep on materials, processes, and techniques with past guests. But if monetary support is not in the cards for you right now, you can leave a review for us on your podcast listening app of choice or buy something from one of our sponsors and tell them Hello, Print Friend sent you. But as always, the very, very, very best thing you can do to support this podcast is by listening and sharing with your fellow print friends around the world. And that's our show for this week. Next week, we're kicking off something a little different at Hello, Print Friend. We're going to be doing Outlaw October, a month long feature on Outlaw Printmakers and a little bit of a deep dive into who they are and what they do. We're going to be starting with Bill Fick. We talk about growing up in Venezuela, and later, Saudi Arabia, what makes a cartoon a cartoon, high and lowbrow art, and skulls. You won't want to miss it. This episode, like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing by Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Webber. I'll see you next week.