Episode 160 | Bill Fick

Published October 4, 2022

Miranda Metcalf  03:16

Hi, Bill, how's it going? 

Bill Fick  03:18

Hey, Miranda, what's up? 

Miranda Metcalf  03:20

Hey! It's so nice to see you again.

Bill Fick  03:22

Yeah, good to see you. Wonderful, totally wonderful. With your brand new mic!

Miranda Metcalf  03:27

I know, I know. We're on the maiden voyage of this professional podcasting mic. It's very exciting. 

Bill Fick  03:34

Awesome. Yeah, very cool.  Yeah. June, I think, yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  03:36

Well, I'm really happy that we're gonna get a chance to talk, and to have you on the podcast. It was great meeting you in Santa Fe - I guess it was a few months ago now? A few weeks ago? Who knows? What is time?  And I know that you're someone who a lot of our listeners know, and are really interested in, so I'm really excited to share your story and to get to know you a little better.

Bill Fick  04:01

Fantastic. Great. Let's do it!

Miranda Metcalf  04:03

Let's do it! So before we dive in, would you please let people know who you are, where you are, what you do?

Bill Fick  04:12

Okay, yeah. Well, I'm Bill Fick. I live in Durham, North Carolina. My practice is here in Durham, and I teach at Duke University. I teach printmaking, drawing, comics, zines. But yeah, I'm a... I guess I'm a teacher, artist, print maniac, print enthusiast to the max. And yeah... printmaking is life, man.

Miranda Metcalf  04:36

I love that. So that's where you are now. But where did you grow up? And what role did art have in that part of your life?

Bill Fick  04:45

Yeah, well, so I actually - my dad worked for an oil company. He worked for Exxon - well, Esso, when I was born. I was born in Indonesia. And we left Indonesia shortly after I was born. So I was born in 1963, and then my family left there around '64, I believe, early '64. And then we moved to Venezuela. That's where I grew up as a kid. We moved to Eastern Venezuela, which was kind of a remote part of the country, sort of. And then we moved to the western part of the country. So the western part of Venezuela is where I basically grew up, until I was about 14. But I lived in an American community. It was sort of the way it worked back in those days, where you grew up within the community, like the staff, the people, that your parents worked with. My dad worked with. So we had our own camp. It was like a military camp sort of thing, kind of. I mean, it wasn't, but it was a camp situation. Yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  05:43

Yeah, I think it still is that way. Yeah. I was thinking, when I was living in Thailand, you would meet people who had grown up in Southeast Asia and were American. And you would never know that they'd grown up in Southeast Asia. They talked like Californians, they didn't speak Thai. 

Bill Fick  06:01

Right. Yeah, yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  06:02

You would try and ask them, 'Oh, you've been here so long! Can you tell me about this aspect of Thai culture that I don't quite think I'm understanding?' And they'd be like, 'No.' So I think expat communities like that still definitely exist. Yeah.

Bill Fick  06:16

Well, actually, in Venezuela, though, we did learn Spanish. I mean, I went to an American school, and we spoke English at school. But the odd thing was that the Venezuelan management people, their kids were on one side of the school, and we were on the other side of the school. So it was strange, we went to the same school, but we were separated. So very strange... I guess that was sort of a leftovers from the olden days, where the expats didn't totally integrate with the local community. Although the weird thing about it is that our parents, we all hung out - we didn't, I gotta say, the kids were more - we didn't always hang out with the Venezuelan kids, but we were friends with them. But it was definitely, the Americans, and then you had the Venezuelans. But we all lived in the same [area], we were neighbors, we hung out, my parents were friends with everybody. So it was a weird kind of... not totally integrated, but definitely, we spoke Spanish everywhere else, except when we were in our family or whatever. So, I mean, I became pretty fluent, obviously. But because I didn't go to a school, my Spanish was very street Spanish, and like... because I would watch TV and it was all in Spanish. So I had this strange kind of Spanish education where it was like, my grammar is not that great, because it's sort of a street Spanish. 

Miranda Metcalf  07:35

Yeah, it gets the job done.

Bill Fick  07:36

Or, street Spanish from Venezuela, which is different than other countries' Spanish in some ways. In terms of accent, and lingo, and all that.

Miranda Metcalf  07:42

Yeah. So were you aware that you were having sort of an unusual childhood when you were in it?

Bill Fick  07:50

Sort of. It was unusual when we'd come back to the states in the summer. We'd have our summer vacation, and we'd come to the States. My mom's from Florida and South Carolina, my dad was from New Jersey. So we would visit family in the States. And I knew that I was different in that when people would say, like, if I was out somewhere and I'd run into some kids, they say, 'Who are you? Where are you from?' And I'd say, 'Well, I'm from Venezuela.' They'd be like, 'What? What's that like?' So I always knew that would get attention. Like, being different that way. So yeah, I did know it that way. I mean, actually... so after Venezuela, we moved to Saudi Arabia. However, I was already... let's see, I was in a boarding school at the time, and then went to college. And so by that time, I hadn't gone to school there. But that was a much bigger sort of camp set up. I mean, a huge, huge oil setup. The company was this massive, huge company. As opposed to in Venezuela, it was a smaller - I mean, it was Exxon, but it was a smaller kind of oil fields kind of situation -as opposed to Saudi Arabia, which was this massive, international, multi... the workers came from all over the world and everything. So it was a much different experience. But what was interesting about that is that I was... because that was not where I grew up. So when I moved there, I was like, 'Wow, this is a really interesting place.' And so I was really interested in sort of learning a little about the culture. I didn't learn the language. But a lot of my friends were from the Middle East, so I got to know more about those cultures, and sort of the history and the politics, and stuff like that.

Miranda Metcalf  09:32

So you were in boarding school in Saudi Arabia? 

Bill Fick  09:36

No, no, in Massachusetts. I went to school there.

Miranda Metcalf  09:38

Okay, gotcha.

Bill Fick  09:39

A lot of people would go away - because the American schools would go up to a certain, like, ninth grade, and then... actually, when I was coming - so I was still living in Venezuela when I went to boarding school, but in Venezuela, they nationalized the oil companies. And so they closed down the schools, because it became the Americans - we still lived there, but things changed a bit. So anyway, some kids would go away earlier than if they would have stayed. But anyway, point being, is that when we moved to Saudi Arabia, that was a flip. Because I didn't grow up there, so my experience there was sort of learning about their culture.

Miranda Metcalf  10:55

Right.

Bill Fick  10:55

In Saudi Arabia and all that. So that was really very interesting, and it was such a different cultural experience. But still, there were tons of expats there, and like you say, the company there was run by a consortium of American big oil companies, so there were a lot of people from California, and... I mean, when I grew up in Venezuela, it was mostly [Americans] from Louisiana and Texas, but when I got to Saudi Arabia, I was meeting people from all over the world, and then a lot of Californians. Because one of the companies was a big oil company from California. Right, yeah, I mean... my mom is an artsy person, sort of a craftsy person. So she was always kind of making stuff, like papier-mache, and things like that. So I was kind of around it. And I was always interested in art. And oddly enough, as a kid, that kind of was what I wanted to be, but I didn't even know what it meant, really. I don't know why. But I wanted to be an artist. But I didn't really know what being an artist meant. So I don't know where that came from. But I think it [was] just because the idea of it sounded like you could draw, you can make pictures, things like that. And I wasn't the total art kid who was always drawing. But I did like to draw, and I was sort of like... there was a girl in my fourth grade class who was a really good drawer. And I was like, 'Oh, man, I gotta be able to draw as [well] as her,' or I was a little jealous, whatever. But yeah, I think it was sort of... I don't know, kind of an unconscious thing in some ways, that I wanted to do that. I really don't know why. But then as I got older, I took some art classes in high school, and liked that. And then in college, I was an art major. And I went to Duke as an undergrad, and we had a very small art program. I mean, I think there were like three of us majoring in art. And I still was sort of not clear why I was majoring in art. But I took a ton of art history classes, which was really good. And my print teacher was someone who was really energetic and excited. And she really, really instilled some real interest in printmaking at the time. That was sort of my first real experience with printmaking. Her name is Merrill Shatzman. And she was part of the Wisconsin crowd back then. So her group would have been... oh, I'm not sure exactly when she was there, but Art Werger and Beth Grabowski and... those were some artists that were there when she was there. Anyway, so I got a little taste of - because she pulled out a portfolio from the Madison crew, her crew. And I was like, 'Oh, my God.' I was blown away. I was like, 'Geez, that's crazy!' My head was... I didn't know what I was looking at, really. So there were these amazing, like, ten color aquatints, or whatever - I don't know, there was just some really... Thinking back on it, I just remember, I was like, 'Wow, this is really amazing stuff.' But I didn't really know anything about it. But she was just showing us, like, 'Hey, look at this. This is what printmaking is about.' But I kind of gravitated pretty quickly to relief prints. So in high school, I got a little taste of it, because I did take some sort of a print class, or a class that involved some printing. But then when I got to college is where I started - undergrad is where I started to get into it. But I still was sort of not sure, exactly. And then really what happened was, I didn't know what I was gonna do. And then I said, 'Okay, well, I'll become a furniture designer.' And the reason for that was because in North Carolina, furniture design is - there's a history of furniture in North Carolina. And I had met a furniture designer, and my family kind of knew some people who were furniture designers in the furniture industry. Because by this time, my parents had left, my dad had retired, so they moved to North Carolina. And I had family in North Carolina. So anyway, the furniture designer was like, 'Oh, yeah, you could be a furniture designer. That's sort of a real job for an artist.' And I was like, 'Okay, well, maybe I'll try that.' So I went to art college up in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Kendall College of Art and Design. I don't know what it's called today. It's in Grand Rapids. But they have a well known - well, they did, or they still do, I don't know - furniture design school. But that just didn't work. I didn't like it. It didn't work at all. Anyway, so then after that, I came back to North Carolina and just sort of tried to figure some things out. And took a year off. And then I met some people, some students at UNC Greensboro, University of North Carolina in Greensboro, and I was living near Greensboro. So I got to know that program a little bit. And then I went into grad school there after being out of school for about a year or so. And yeah, that's where I really got into printmaking. So yeah, I'll sort of stop there if you have any questions to catch up. I've been talking straight for a few minutes.

Miranda Metcalf  11:11

That's so interesting. And while you're having all these experiences, and living in Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Massachusetts, where did art fit into that? [In] young Bill's formative years? No, no. I mean, I think all that's really good. And I was curious, because I know that cartoons and comics, and now zines, are a big part of what you do. But you didn't mention that much of it was part of growing up. Were you a comic kid?

Bill Fick  16:00

Yeah, that's pretty fascinating. I mean, I was. I had a box full of comics. But actually, I really never read the comics. I would always look at the pictures, and kind of... I would read them, but I was more interested in the pictures. But I graduated from grad school in 1990. And so things - the separation of sort of fine art and graphic arts and things like that was still pretty strong. So in my education, when I was in grad school, nobody would have brought up the idea of like, 'Oh, your work has comic elements to it.' Because it was similar to what it is now, but it was more... I was looking at a lot of Gothic art, these sort of goofy follies... I mean, I was looking at all the rock star stuff from that era. But I was always looking for the strange illustrations, the more comicy kind of stuff that weren't meant to be comics, obviously. Sort of a sidebar, there's these carvings in cathedrals called misericords. They're like these funny, strange carvings that are underneath the seats in the choir stalls. And they're kind of a strange thing. And I got into those. But basically, they're very humorous, kind of bawdy, strange stories - like, narratives. So I was always kind of looking for those off-the-beaten-path kind of art. But that's because, again, I didn't have any teachers that were comics people. So it would have been really obvious for them to say, 'Well, do you look at R. Crumb?' Or, 'Are you interested in early American comics?' Or things like that. But the artist that I did get to know about and got really interested in - and they they were sort of comic-y in a way - but one of my teachers was a studio assistant for Max Beckmann at Wash U. So he was teaching at UNC Greensboro when I was there. So I got to know a lot about Max Beckmann. And I think if you look at Beckmann's work, it's... I mean, I was very derivative of Beckmann in my early [years] when I was in school. Very bold black lines, and narrative, real packed kind of scenes and stuff like that. And then this guy also knew Philip Guston. So he told us a lot about Guston. And obviously, Guston, his work was heavily influenced by comics. But even then, even that teacher didn't even really say, 'Oh, yeah, you should really look closely at comics.' So the comics thing kind of came later. I got more interested in that later, as I got further and further away from school, because it was like, hey, this is great material. Why not look at it?

Miranda Metcalf  18:44

I've been thinking about this question recently - actually, Tim and I have been talking about it a little bit - in terms of what makes... because usually, what makes something comic-y - that's my art historical training there coming out - has to do with the way in which the human form is stylized. It's kind of... like, if you do a picture of a houseplant with these kind of round, exaggerated forms, people won't necessarily look at it and say, 'That's comic-y.' It's something about the person, right? It's the way that we draw the human form that, I can totally see, has those art historical roots going back into hundreds of years ago in European traditions. 

Bill Fick  19:31

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  19:32

The way in which a little figure gets simplified and exaggerated in this really particular way. I mean, you can even see it in the figures in Bosch's "Garden of [Earthly Delights]." There's a universality to the figures. Maybe that's it, maybe it has to do with the fact that like, it could be a specific person, but doesn't need to be.

Bill Fick  19:54

Right.

Miranda Metcalf  19:54

Because the specifics have sort of been sanded off.

Bill Fick  19:58

Right, right. Yeah... totally, I mean, that's what, I think, is the print history that I really love. So I think, like Goya, if you look at Goya, his characters are always sort of squat. They're not attenuated, long, tall, skinny. And I just love Goya because I think that proportion for me is really important. And again, Beckmann, his characters tended to be sort of squat, kind of... not all, but there was this sort of, like, a cartoony kind of... and some of Picasso's stuff was, his characters... I really love that scale of art. Like Paula Rego's work, too... her characters are sort of three-quarter size. So I'm really attracted to that.

Miranda Metcalf  20:49

Yeah, because it seems like, as I was just thinking about it, like it is something to do with the squatness... because I'm thinking of artists like [Paul] Wunderlich, who elongate their figures, or Dali, who elongate their figures. And those aren't, you don't consider those cartoons. So there's something about that action that makes it more surrealist, but it's like, the rounding and the... the kind of, like, softness that you give the forms. How interesting.

Bill Fick  21:18

Yeah, totally. Right. I mean, if you think early American comics, like Mutt and Jeff, and The Katzenjammer Kids, early Mickey Mouse, they're all that sort of squat, kind of compressed scale, and they're rounded off. Right, they have that rounded off quality. So for me, I love that era, or that kind of character. Jacques Callot did a lot of those squat characters. And that's why, with contemporary comics, I'm not really interested the new look, because it's all very angular, and it's very stretched. Kind of... well, yeah, I would say angular. And some manga, too. I don't like the... I go looking for the characters that are more rounded off. I don't know why! It's sort of weird!

Miranda Metcalf  22:06

No, it's so funny.

Bill Fick  22:06

But it's like, I'm just totally, it's bizarre, I don't know - well, not bizarre - but it's really interesting in my brain, and what I'm attracted to in terms of visual narrative characters. I really like those rounded off characters.

Miranda Metcalf  22:22

Well, and I think it's so cool that you just know that about yourself and can lean into that. Because we all have what we like and what we don't like. I have pet peeves of imagery that, if I see it - and this is one that, if I'm ever jurying a show - it's gas masks. I'm just like, 'Ugh, kids, again with the gas masks!' Like, there's something about student art where gas masks appear a lot. And then, I often joke about, when I'm jurying, I'm such an animal nerd that I'll be like, 'Oh, man, I just picked out everything with an animal in it.' So we have to be aware of these things in ourselves, and how much we can lean into them. And of course, being a juror, you need to be more democratic, of course. But when it's your own work, it's like, yeah, lean into what lights you up! Because that's what's gonna keep it sustainable! Yeah.

Bill Fick  23:21

Yeah, totally! And I think one other thing that's kind of interesting about it is that, for me, the work that I was doing right out of grad school, and these bigger narrative editorial narrative pieces, it was sort of... I couldn't - I had to make them squat! Because if I wanted to build this image, and put a bunch of characters in there, if they're really tall, it would be hard - I couldn't fit them in. So that was probably a subconscious thing, where I was able to squeeze them down into a rectangle that was three - let's say, if I was making a print that was three feet by four feet, and the characters were pretty... forward, they weren't in deep space or anything like that - how are you going to fit those in to make that a standing figure against the figure that's sitting down? So I think that had something to do with it, too, in terms of being able to scale and fitting things into the image.

Miranda Metcalf  24:17

Yeah, just the logistics of it.

Bill Fick  24:19

Yeah. Because all my - if you ever see my early stuff - the characters are very much in the very front of the picture plane. And I don't have a lot of depth. So it's like a stage... and that comes, I think, from my interest in Max Beckmann, because his work was very much like a theater. It was like a platform, and the characters were in the platform, and they were all crammed in there. So for me that was... but yeah, deep space has never been something I've been totally - I mean, in terms of my own work - I don't show a lot of deep space.

Miranda Metcalf  24:53

Yeah. Which I think, also, is a contributor to the aesthetic that people call "cartoon," or "comic."

Bill Fick  25:03

Yeah, yeah. Right. 

Miranda Metcalf  25:04

It's the rounded figures, and then it's the more or less keeping this one plane of space going. And there's something about that, too, that makes it kind of seem... so narrative. Because it's such a clear form of communication. You've got your figures up front and center, they're really easily readable with your eye because they've got these sort of exaggerated forms, and so there's something about it that, I think, we're just kind of trained to interact with images that are like that in a different way. Where we think that they're kind of inherently didactic or telling me a story.

Bill Fick  25:45

Right.

Miranda Metcalf  25:45

Because if you think of images of people who are telling us something out in life, like the little walk guy on the walk sign, he's exaggerated, he's one plane of space, all of it. So I think that it's interesting, because you're using this aesthetic, but I think it also changes the way in which people come to read it. So they're like, 'Okay, what is Bill's work saying?' In this way that it seems to be decipherable, I think, in a clear way. Whereas when you... I don't know, you see a Rothko or something, you're like... 'I'm not expecting to get, like, a message from this.'

Bill Fick  26:21

Right, exactly! Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny that you mentioned signs, because I mean, in some ways, that's where my work has gone in the last, I don't know, 20 years or so. Because I've isolated the face or the head, like skulls and zombies. Because again, when I was making those larger narratives, the face was an important part of the image. And then as I - well, I had the opportunity, I was working big, because I had plenty of space to work big and I had a lot of time. And then I moved to New York. And I moved into a tiny studio. I did have a press in the studio, but it was a certain size. And so for me, I couldn't make larger ones. And so I started making these smaller ones. And then I said, well - in my brain, I think it was like - well, like, what is the most important part of a figure? And it's generally going to be the head, where all the expression is and all that. So I've always, really, the last 20 years I guess, just been focusing on the head. So depending on if it's an animal, like a cat or a bull, or then if it's a skull - which, I've made many, many skulls - and I'm fascinated by skull images. I mean, I could keep making skulls forever. But just the head... so in some ways, it's like this sign, like, okay, it's a cat with a cigar and a top hat. And that's it! There's nothing more - like you say, there's nothing more to it. It's very clearly, that's clearly what it is. And so yeah, it's just sort of evolved into just really focusing on the head. And I really don't do those larger narratives anymore, which, I do wish I could make more of those, but my time is limited, and those took a while. And I don't know, I think I've just been doing these heads for so long that I just still find them fascinating. And there's plenty to do with those heads, so I just keep making them.

Miranda Metcalf  28:09

Well, I'm sure anyone who's tried to make an image of a human body, as I'm sure a lot of our listeners have, they'll know how frustrating and difficult the head and the face is, and how it really makes or breaks a composition. And because we, as these social, weird, hairless two-legged apes, we've evolved to be so social, and to be able to read faces so well - like, the tiniest shift in all of these muscles that we've got in the face - makes us realize something. Like, oh, that person is actually upset, or like, she didn't like what I just said. Or whatever it is. And so because of that, a face in art, it has to be so precise and so perfect. There's no... you can't... there's no wiggle room. With an arm, like, how wide is that arm? I don't know, big or small, it doesn't really matter. 

Bill Fick  29:08

Right, right. Yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  29:09

So I could see, in your practice, really understanding that there's so far to go. There's so [much] to dive into, just what a face can do. And how you make it do exactly what you want it to do is quite a challenge, I would guess.

Bill Fick  29:28

Yeah, well, I mean, I've been doing so many of them now that I've got a bit of a formula, I guess. But there are endless amounts of things you can do. And even - I mean, I'll repeat myself with certain things, but I mean, you can just keep repeating and repeating. And just changing certain things, adding a hat, a cigar, making one eye droopy, putting an earring on the ear, a beard, long hair, whatever, no teeth, things like that. I mean, there's just so many different things that you can do with it. I'm always looking at stuff, seeing how other people draw faces and stuff like that, or weird characters and stuff like that.

Miranda Metcalf  30:11

Well, and I've always found that being around a lot of artists, being in art studios, being in print studios, there's something really incredible about people who have the ability to just sort of sit down and draw a human form doing what they want it to do, just off the top of their head. And it's something that I feel like, again, not to bring it back over and over again, but I feel like that is something that cartoonists can do. Like, you can just tell a cartoonist, 'I need a cat playing the trombone on a barstool.' And they're like, 'I got it.' Right? I remember, once, Tim was doing some collaborative lithography with this really incredible tattoo artist, Onnie O'Leary, who works down - this was when we were down in Australia - and she does a lot of human forms. And we wanted to do a test of something, and she just sat down, and she just drew this dancing woman. And it just came - it was the craziest thing - it just came out of her pencil. It was like, 'How did that happen?' And so... it's a very old conversation about art versus craft versus cartoons, and I think cartoons sometimes do get put, in the grand scheme of things, lower down on the great art hierarchy, under a Rothko or something like that. Some of the most impressive technical skills that I've seen artists have are [from] people who work in that kind of cartoonish sort of way, in that way where it's like, the practice is the human form, and the human form communicating something can be super, super impressive.

Bill Fick  31:46

Yeah. Well, but I think nowadays, it's become really... I mean, the cartoons and comics have gotten a lot more attention. Artists like Kaws, and a lot of the street art people, graffiti artists, I mean, even though they're using words, they're very cartoony. So I think it's interesting to see how this language is becoming more and more accepted, or becoming mainstream in some ways. Because like I say, when I was in grad school, if I had been talking about comics, or just that kind of art or that kind of imagery, the teachers would have been like, 'Uh, what are you talking about?' It wasn't considered "art," it was considered this low form of image making. But I think there's been such an explosion of different artists using that. And so... and also, culturally. I think the Japanese have, I mean, they're really... all their cute characters, and Hello Kitty, and there just was this explosion of... and then with, like, Takashi Murakami, and his whole movement, and those artists. I think there's just been a huge influence that's expanding, and going further and further. And also, pop culture itself has become very interested in this kind of imagery. And so yeah, I think at one time, there was definitely this big separation. But now I can see it coming together. And... I don't know, it's been really exciting for me to see the different ways people use these kind of art making and approach... and you mentioned tattoos. I mean, that's become a source for me. I mean, I don't have tattoos, but a lot of my friends have tattoos. So it's been fun, just getting - I mean, that would have been another subject, or art form, that got very little attention back when I was in grad school. But nowadays, it's just exploding. And it's just this great resource. It's a source of just amazing imagery.

Miranda Metcalf  33:52

Yeah, and I think that versatility that a tattoo artist needs is incredible. Because someone like Onnie, she does all these tattoos, mostly of the female form. And most of it is like, super dirty, and very creative. And so, like, someone came in and they just described this really specific orgy scene, and she's like, 'Yeah, here you go.' She can just draw it up! She's just insanely talented, but because of that collaborative nature, they need to be so versatile. And it's funny you should mention the tattoos in that way as well. Because there's, in Tasmania, there's the Museum of Old and New Art. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's this private museum. It's got this crazy story that the guy who ran it made his money counting cards, I think. He came up with, like, a formula for counting cards, and became immensely wealthy. Got banned from all the casinos in the world. And [now] has this art collection. And they have, in their collection, the back tattoo of this guy named Tim. And he's alive. And he goes and he sits, you know, on a pedestal with gallery lighting, just meditating with earphones in, for a few days a year. But when he dies, his skin's going to be donated to the museum. 

Bill Fick  35:13

Whoa! Whoa.

Miranda Metcalf  35:14

And so it's this kind of next step of that. And he's in the museum with Kawses, and Banksys, and Murakamis. Like, the art of that tattoo artist is going to be in a collection with the canon of 21st century artwork.

Bill Fick  35:33

Wow, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I saw this documentary about Don Ed Hardy. And I knew about Don Ed Hardy's tattoos, he's like, everywhere, but I didn't know much about him. And it was really cool to find out that he's totally into fine art. I mean, he's like a fine artist that just happened to get into tattoos. And the way he talks about his art, and his influences, I mean, it's just like, he's an artist. He's like a pure artist in that way, as opposed to just being some guy that sort of figured out how to do tattoos. I mean, he had this really rich knowledge of art and all that, and things that he was interested in, and the way he talked about his work. And the more I find out about tattoo artists, it's great, because they have this deep knowledge about the history of art and those kinds of things. So yeah, I mean, it's been a really great... I mean, in some ways, it was cool that I really didn't know much about that. Because now, I'm always looking for interesting tattoo images, tattoo books. I'm always paying attention to people's tattoos when I see them walking around. I'm like, 'I wanna [check that out!]" 

Miranda Metcalf  36:41

Yeah.

Bill Fick  36:42

But it's really just exciting to be able to have this whole other area that I just didn't have much knowledge about, because I was coming up at a time where you needed to be looking at "fine art," as opposed to looking at all this other popular art, which now is blowing up and becoming a part of what we call "fine art." Do you think you will get a tattoo at some point with this new interest?  I might!

Miranda Metcalf  37:03

Yeah?

Bill Fick  37:03

Yeah. I was talking to John Hancock, and he might... I might go with John Hancock. We're talking about it. Because he's learning how to tattoo.

Miranda Metcalf  37:13

Yeah, he mentioned that when I saw you all.

Bill Fick  37:15

Yeah, so we've been talking. He says he's got to do some more training. I think I might do a little small one by John. But that would have a lot of meaning, because we're friends, and the fact that - I mean, I've always looked at [his] - he's got tattoos all over. But it would have a lot more meaning because he would be doing it.

Miranda Metcalf  37:33

Yeah, yeah, that would be very cool.

Bill Fick  37:36

It'd be some probably little, tiny little... we were thinking about some sort of a hobo flea. Hobo flea, or like, a hobo cat. 

Miranda Metcalf  37:45

So cute!

Bill Fick  37:46

A little tiny kind of depression-era-looking character.

Miranda Metcalf  37:49

Well, you know how there are those, like, old hobo symbols? 

Bill Fick  37:52

Uh-huh. Oh, yeah! Right. 

Miranda Metcalf  37:53

I always thought those would make a cool tattoo! The one that says, like, "you can get work here," or "the water's good to drink." Some of them are really beautiful, and simple. But yeah, I was always like, it'd be kind of fun to get a hobo marking!

Bill Fick  38:09

Yeah, right. I mean, why not?

Miranda Metcalf  38:13

Why not? So you mentioned a little bit, when we were chatting before we recorded, about the fact that you do the Zine Machine. You've got this event that's now around zines, it's sort of like a Zine fest. I'm curious, I want to know more about that, but I'm also sort of interested in, is there a distinction between cartoons and zines? I mean, like, how [do] those worlds overlap for you?

Bill Fick  38:40

Well, I mean, actually, it's called the Zine Machine, but it's a printed matter festival. So it is printed materials, but there are lots of zines. I mean, for me, it's... for me, a zine can be pretty much anything. It's just like a pamphlet, a book, a fold out, or whatever. And so it could be illustrated that way. I mean, I do like the more illustrated zines, as opposed to the more text heavy zines. Again, I think it goes back to my being a kid, I just liked to look at the pictures. So yeah, I mean, I'm definitely drawn more towards the... in fact, when I came out to Santa Fe, we went to that Hecho A Mano store. 

Miranda Metcalf  39:24

Yeah. 

Bill Fick  39:24

Which is, I guess, just down the street from where you work. 

Miranda Metcalf  39:27

Yeah, almost across the street. 

Bill Fick  39:27

In fact, we saw you after we were there! We went down... but anyway, they had these beautiful... they weren't comic books, and I bought a few of them, they were... I guess you could call them a zine, or a little illustrated book, but really just beautiful little illustrations in this book. In this zine format, but there was really no text in it. They were screen printed. So I mean, is it a book? Is it a magazine? Is it a zine? What is it? But that's why I love running this thing - or, well, actually, this year is the first time I'm running it by myself. Because the folks who helped me with it before - we worked together on it before - they have other things cooking, so they weren't able to do it. So I just said, 'I'll just take it on by myself.' But anyway... I just love it, because I can go around and look at all this different kind of material that's being created. Like, someone [who] just signed up, they've been making coloring books. I know people who are really hardcore about zines, and they're like a distribution, like a DIY distribution. And I mean, it just, to me, it's like a great - as someone who's interested in printed materials - I think zines and related stuff like zines, little booklets or things like that, are just wonderful objects. And as a printmaker and someone who's been making prints and things like that, a booklet, to me, there's something - it has more to it. It's not just a piece of paper with an image on it. It's multiple pieces of paper with images on it, or text, or whatever. So it's like this really... and I think anybody who's into book [arts] - people will say, well, this is exactly what book people are into. So I mean, I don't think there's really any difference. It's like a thing with pages. It's like, is it a book? Is it a zine? Is it a magazine? Is it a comic? Whatever, it just depends on what you're making and how you want to present it.

Miranda Metcalf  39:29

Yeah. And like, probably the intention of the creator, and all of that stuff. Yeah, definitely.

Bill Fick  41:27

Yeah. But I've always been interested in little books. When I was a kid, I always liked little books. I don't know why. Just three quarter sized things, you know? Small.

Miranda Metcalf  41:36

Yeah. You just like things compact.

Bill Fick  41:38

Yeah, I like things portable, compact. Yeah. I don't know what that's about.

Miranda Metcalf  41:44

Well, when we met for the first time in person, as you said, you were out here in Santa Fe, and you were part of what they call the Speedball Roadshow. What is that?

Bill Fick  41:54

Yeah, that's been fantastic. So Carlos Hernandez and I - Carlos is, I think a lot of people know who Carlos is - he is an artist in Houston. And anyway, Carlos had been working with Speedball. This was... ooh, I don't know, what, maybe almost 10 years ago, perhaps? Something like that.  Eight years ago? Anyway, Carlos had been working with Speedball, helping them develop some of their fluorescent inks and some other things. He had been working with them. And then they started wanting to make professional inks, or inks that would... I mean, some people had used their inks in a professional way, however, they were on purpose, like, 'Okay, we're going to make a whole range of professional inks.' Relief inks. So Carlos said, 'Hey, well, you should talk to Bill, because he's in North Carolina. Right down - two hours from where you guys make your ink.' So anyhow, I got to know the Speedball team, and it's been great. And anyway, we started thinking like, hey, what can we do? Well, during the New York Print Week a few years back, about five years, six years ago, I was in New York for Speedball doing some stuff. And Carlos was in New York also. Not for Speedball, but he was in New York for a show he was in. Pretty sure that's right. But anyway, we were thinking, 'Hey, well, why don't we just do some kind of a traveling thing where we both go on the road, and Speedball sponsors us, and we just spread the gospel of ink and print?' And so they were like, 'Yeah, for sure. Okay, cool. You can do that.' And so we slowly got into it, and then really got into it, and did a lot. But then COVID came along and kind of knocked us out there for a few years. But now we're picking it back up. So when we came to Santa Fe, the roadshow basically - we had gone to Tamarind, and we interviewed the folks at Tamarind and then we went to Takach and hung out there, and got to hang out with David [Takach]. And actually, David started hanging out with us. And we came up to Santa Fe, and then we were at Black Rock Editions, and we were just doing some... basically reporting, talking to people, just sort of saying, 'Hey, look, there's all this stuff going on in printmaking.' And since we have a lot of connections, we're able to get in [to] meet people at Tamarind, or go to Black Rock, or go to Takach. Fortunately, we know a lot of people at universities, so we're able to really connect with the universities. And the universities like it, because we come in, we do some workshops, we've got materials, and so they're like, 'Hey, great. Here's these guys traveling around. Let's have them come by.' So it's been great. Yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  44:39

Yeah. Well, and I think that you all also know how to put on a bit of a show. So if you want to get your students excited about printmaking, I think your good choice is to do that. Yeah.

Bill Fick  44:49

Well, that's mostly Carlos. He's the showman. Yeah, it's been so much fun traveling with him. We have a great time. I think it's what we try to do with it. We try to show how printmaking is such a fun bunch of people. We really enjoy hanging out and learning from each other, and I mean, like what you're doing, it's this great community. And I mean, I don't think any other art form has it. It's just... anyway, so we feel like it's really important to share this with people who are learning, or people who have been in it for a while, but maybe they're not a part of that. So we try to share that and spread that love of printmaking! You know?

Miranda Metcalf  45:31

Totally! And speaking of Carlos, and the fun of printmaking and all that, I mentioned that I'm doing this Outlaw October. So I'm talking to people who are under the Outlaw umbrella, which includes you, despite the fact that you don't have any tattoos so far.

Bill Fick  45:49

Yeah, right! I'm the normal one. 

Miranda Metcalf  45:50

Yeah, yeah, you're the straight man for the Outlaws.

Bill Fick  45:54

Yeah, the old normal guy.

Miranda Metcalf  45:56

But I guess I want to ask, what is your conception of what Outlaw Printmakers are, and where they kind of fit into the story of printmaking?

Bill Fick  46:06

I mean, I think the main thing is that we're all basically narrative artists. We make stories, we come from a tradition - we all like a lot of the same artists, going way back to Durer, and Hogarth, and Goya...

Miranda Metcalf  46:23

Posada, I know.

Bill Fick  46:23

Posada, yeah. We all really love these artists. And so I think that's the main thing that ties us together. Now, there is definitely the more sideshow kind of thing, where it gets kind of crazy... but actually, well, we're all committed, we're super committed to our craft and our art form. 

Miranda Metcalf  46:25

For sure.

Bill Fick  46:44

And so I think that someone like Huck, I mean, the guy works so hard. I mean - well, I think we all really, really work hard, and are really dedicated to our craft and our art form. But yeah, I mean, I think the Outlaw thing is just sort of a nice way - because a lot of our work is satirical, a lot of it's sort of irreverent, a lot of it is non-traditional in that it's maybe kind of... oh, I don't know, just freaky weird. Things like that. I mean, like Carlos's work, he loves monster movie posters and dripping makeup and crazy firework-y kind of stuff. And then Hancock brothers, I mean, you can't compete with them. I mean, they're so far out there. And it's just... I think the underlying thing is that... we really love what we do, and we're really passionate about it. We like to spend time together. And again, it really gets back to this, we're all narrative artists and making narrative art. And in a time when the art world is so diverse, and [there are] lots of different kinds of things being made. I think that's definitely something that ties us together. And we're printmakers, a lot of us predominantly make black and white imagery, or monochromatic. Not a whole - I mean, Hancock Brothers use a lot of color. Sean Star Wars uses a lot of color too. But anyway, the point being is that I think there's this bold graphic imagery that's being made, yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  48:16

I've been trying to answer the question for myself as I've taken this on, and there's something that's a little bit hard to put into words, but I think it has a little bit to do with subversion, a bit. And like you said, many of the artists that you named that you all draw inspiration from, like Hogarth, Posada, Goya even, I mean, these were subversive artists. These were artists who were not in step with the dominant narrative, but still had people who were connecting with their work. And were making work that was saying something. And so I feel like there's something in there, too, but it's very difficult to sort of exactly pinpoint. It's almost like - what is that old thing about pornography? Like 'I know when I see it.' That's like what the Outlaw sort of aesthetic is.

Bill Fick  49:09

Right, right. Well, and we've sort of defined ourselves this way, or... but I mean, there are tons of outlaw artists out there. I mean, again, I would say a lot of tattoo artists, their work is very outlaw. I think it's just sort of a... when you hear "Outlaw Printmaking," it sort of conjures up a certain kind of attitude or vibe. And someone might say, 'Wow, an outlaw, what does that mean? Ooh, who are they?' But it's sort of more, I think... I don't want to say "cinematic.' It's made up! It's like, we're not riding around and beating people up. It's just sort of a... and it's not an attitude, because we're all quite friendly people. So I think it's just more historic, like James Dean, leather jacket, that whole thing. I don't have a leather jacket, so... but Carlos has a very nice leather jacket! So anyway, but the point being is that I think it's just more of an adjective that we can use that sort of helps people sort of say, 'Oh, okay, what kind of work do you do?' 'Well, it's kind of outlawish.'

Miranda Metcalf  50:13

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Bill Fick  50:16

I mean, some of the group would like to be more outlaw-y. But anyway, we're all just making art and having a good time together.

Miranda Metcalf  50:25

Totally, totally. And so what's on the horizon for you? What's coming up? I mean, you said the Zine Machine is on the horizon, at least?

Bill Fick  50:35

Right, Zine Machine's coming up. I've actually been making stuff related to the elections and voting and all that kind of thing. I've been making - it's nothing to do with my sort of narrative work - it's just signage and things like that. So I've been doing a lot of that with screenprinting. And in terms of my own work, I just keep making it. Things come up. It's sort of like... I think that's the one thing about it, is if you keep making your work, and you're engaged and involved, things happen. But like the road show, Carlos and I will be back in New York this fall, we'll be back visiting places in the spring. And like I said, it was great coming out to Santa Fe and Albuquerque and seeing you, and getting to know that area. I had been to Albuquerque, but never to Santa Fe. But anyway, I mean, I think that's what my art life has become, is just getting a chance to do some traveling, making work, teaching. So things just come along, and I'm just along for the ride. See what happens.

Miranda Metcalf  51:35

Beautiful! Well, where can people find you and follow you and find out if the Roadshow is coming to a city near them?

Bill Fick  51:42

Yeah, so my Instagram is @linobill. I do have a website which I need - how many times have you heard that? - I need to update it.

Miranda Metcalf  51:52

Yep. I think that's actually just one word in the art world. I-have-a-website-but-it-needs-to-be-updated. It's always there. 

Bill Fick  52:01

So true! So true. So yeah, Instagram is the best way to see what I'm up to. @linobill on Instagram is the best place to catch me. And in terms of the Roadshow, we will be in New York for Print Week. So anybody who's coming to Print Week, we'll be there. So hope to see folks at New York Print Week. It's a great event.

Miranda Metcalf  52:22

Yeah, for sure. I've actually never been! 

Bill Fick  52:25

Oh, you gotta go.

Miranda Metcalf  52:26

I know. I know. I'm looking at tickets.

Bill Fick  52:30

You should do some live broadcasting from there! Or, not live, but do some recording on-site. That would be cool.

Miranda Metcalf  52:37

Right? That's I was thinking. It would be really fun. Or even just do a live stream on the Instagram of walking around and making people talk to me. It could be super fun, just putting them on the spot.

Bill Fick  52:49

Yeah! Well, I mean, you do such a good job of connecting - I mean, I gotta, say it's amazing, the different artists that you... I mean, I've learned about so many artists by just listening to the podcast.

Miranda Metcalf  53:00

Oh, cool!

Bill Fick  53:00

So yeah, I mean, you've got a big following. So I think it'd be great to find - you seem to be able to find those people, so keep looking and letting us know who they are.

Miranda Metcalf  53:11

Awesome! Well, thanks, Bill! Well, I hope I get a chance to see you again down this way, or maybe at Print Week. And yeah, it's been really fun chatting and getting to know more about you and your practice.

Bill Fick  53:26

Well, thanks a lot, Miranda. It's been great. Appreciate it. And let's just keep on making prints!

Miranda Metcalf  53:32

Yes, please. And that's our show for this week. Join me again next week, when my guest will be Dennis McNett, who you might know on Instagram as Wolfbat. We talk about Dennis's early exposure to art through the skate culture, how and when his prints evolved into three-dimensional sculptures, and the incredible power of shared art experiences. If you can't wait until next week to get some Dennis in your life, head to Corpus Christi this weekend for the Oso Bay Biennial. He'll be there. I'll be there. It'll be a party. This episode, like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing by Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Webber. I'll see you next week.