Episode 161 | Dennis “Wolfbat” McNett

Published October 11, 2022

Miranda Metcalf  02:38

Hi, Dennis, how's it going?

Dennis McNett  02:40

Good, good. How are you?

Miranda Metcalf  02:42

I'm good. I really appreciate you taking some time away from spoiling your dog to have a chat with me today.

Dennis McNett  02:51

Appreciate you asking.

Miranda Metcalf  02:52

Yeah. So I've known about your work for quite some time. You know, I think that you're a big presence in the printmaking world, you're doing large things, you're doing community things, you're doing innovative things. And so I'm just really excited to have a more in-depth conversation with you about how you came to your practice and where it fits in for you. And so I'm just really chuffed to have a chat. But before we get into things, I always ask everyone to introduce themselves by just saying who you are, where you are, what you do.

Dennis McNett  03:26

Okay, I'm Dennis McNett. I'm in Luray, Virginia. And I've been making prints and sculptures and all sorts of things since I was a kid. So that's what I do now.

Miranda Metcalf  03:36

Awesome. And where did you grow up, and what role did art play in that part of your life?

Dennis McNett  03:41

I grew up in Virginia Beach. So it wasn't really culturally rich, like, say, New York or LA, you know. Which, I ended up going to New York later. But definitely... wasn't art educated, that wasn't part of my upbringing either. Aside from, like, here's some crayons and some paper, do it in your own time. 

Miranda Metcalf  04:01

Right.

Dennis McNett  04:01

But I did have a... I had a great-grandfather - I always tell this story, because I think it's funny - but when I was a kid, my great-grandparents were still around, and we'd go there. And I've been drawing since I can remember, but I would draw something and I would show my great-grandfather, and he'd go, 'Oh my gosh, that's a great drawing! Draw some more!' And he was blind. So I thought the drawings were magic and he could see them somehow. So I would scramble and draw some more. 'Look, look!' And he'd say, 'Oh, my gosh!' You know? So I always say he was the first kind of inspiration with drawing. But Virginia Beach, like I said, wasn't very culturally rich. But our culture, what I got culture from, was skateboarding. And I don't know if you want me to say anything about this, or do you want me to...?

Miranda Metcalf  04:45

I would say, tangent away. Because I know that skate culture is foundational to what you do, but I've actually never heard you talk really in depth about discovering skateboarding, and kind of why you connected to it, and then how that evolved in professional artmaking. I think that's really interesting.

Dennis McNett  05:00

Okay, well, Virginia Beach, like I said, it doesn't have a lot of... there's one art museum, and there's not a lot of galleries, unless it's a gallery of, like, seascapes and beachy things. So everyone I grew up with either skated or surfed. So we would surf in the summertime. We would just stay in the water pretty much all summer. But as it got colder, I wasn't into... I'd wear a wetsuit and go out sometimes, but I wasn't into it. So we got into skateboarding. I was never good at it. You know, I was never good. I was never really good at anything athletic. But I loved rolling around. I loved it. And I always say that's where we got our culture from, you know, the group of people I ran around with, because we would go down to the skate shop in Virginia Beach, the 17th Street Skate Shop, to see all the graphics on the bottoms of the boards. And I would be like... 'That thing is awesome!' And then I would try to draw it on my school notebooks. And then we would get Thrasher Magazine. And in Thrasher Magazine, you can see the graphics, and you can see the skateboarder, and you can see the new tricks. So we would be like, 'Well, I'm into this, and I'm going to try this.' And then you flip to the back and it would have this whole section on music. And at the time, like in the early- to mid-'80s, it was all punk rock. So it was my first introduction to punk rock. So I would go, 'Well I like this, and I like this, let me check this out.' And then I would listen to the suggested music in the back of Thrasher Magazine. And I'd be like, 'Yes, that guy's pissed and so am I!' And I loved it! I would listen to all the stuff that was in there. It was mostly thrash, punk, but I always say that's where we got a lot of our culture from. And all the artists that were doing the boards - like, Pushead did the graphic boards. And then later, he did stuff for Metallica, like their first album covers, and very iconic images. Like, you see them and you may not know who it is, but you're like, 'Oh, I know that image. I've seen that before.' Courtlandt Johnson did all the board graphics for Powell-Peralta. So you would see the sword in the skull, or you'd see, like, Steve Caballero's dragon, or... it was a lot of skulls and unsavory characters. And I loved the style of it, like, the graphic quality. And then later, when I went to community college, this guy had a printing press. And he was showing us how to do prints. And I was like, 'What is this guy doing?' He's sitting there chipping away at a piece of wood, and then he just rolls ink onto the surface, and he cranks it through this old looking thing. And I'm like, 'What is he doing?' You know? And he pulls it up, and it looked [like the stuff] I was into. All these, like, harsh graphic imagery that I was seeing on the bottoms of skateboards - and come to find out later, Courtlandt Johnson, all of his graphics were linocuts. So once I saw that first woodcut, I was like, 'I'm in.' I was 19 years old. I was like, 'This is it.' Because I would try drawing, and I remember snapping the charcoal because I was too aggressive. And painting, I was too impatient to let it dry, and I would make a muddy mess. But with this, I could slow down and I could get the lines that I wanted. And it had that... like, a carved line has energy in it. You're putting that pressure on that carved mark, and I loved it. And it translates. I feel like that energy translates to the mark. So then I was hooked. So. That was a long time ago.

Miranda Metcalf  08:19

Well, it's - I think there's a couple sort of significant things in there. And you know, one, when I interview artists who I think oftentimes are also interested in doing this graphic, bold imagery, they'll talk about seeing art in the early, squishy, influential days of their lives on skateboards and on albums. And I don't think the kids these days can understand how precious that was, because they're so saturated with images and information and art and counterculture. But pre-internet - I'm an '80s baby, and so I have the pre-internet memories - there was... just to see something that was outside of the mainstream, to see something that wasn't just primetime shit comedy TV shows, or... I was gonna say Walmart, but don't think Walmart was as big then. Woolworths, I guess, was the old Walmart or something. Like, it really felt so precious. It felt like you were discovering something that spoke to you in a world where nothing else really did.

Dennis McNett  09:24

Yeah, I agree with that 100%. I mean, same with the music. It was like, you couldn't Google it. You know, you had to go down - if we saw something in Thrasher, we had to go down and buy the tape. You know? You would take the money you got for bagging groceries or cutting grass or whatever, and you'd go buy the record or the album and put it on. Yeah, I remember the first albums I got. I got, like, 7 Seconds and Adolescents, and it was from the record shop. And I had no idea what it was going to sound like until I got it home. So yeah, you're absolutely right on that. It's like a lost thing, and there's an oversaturation of imagery, music... which is good and bad, I think.

Miranda Metcalf  10:03

Yeah, yeah... and then I always think about it, too, in terms of, the patience we have for what we consume is so low. And not just in the, like, scrolling, 'Does this catch my eye, does this catch my eye, does this catch my eye?' But also in the sense of, like, if I went and bought an album and I didn't like it right away, I would keep listening to it. Because I had spent my grass cutting money on it! You know? And then I might find a song that I did like, or find something that I liked about some of it. And so just the way that I think creative outputs are consumed is just really different now too, and I try not to be too moralistic about it and talk about like, "the good old days," but it does seem like that invitation to feel like you've discovered something that's really out there... it was such an exciting feeling. And I just don't know if anyone has that these days. Or if it's just all kind of on the same playing field. Yeah. And I'm also curious, too - because like I said, I've heard people speak to particularly skate culture as well - from your experience, what's the real connection between skate culture and art? Because you don't see that bliss and that deep inner-weaving necessarily with other kinds of sport or other kinds of hobby. But it seems like it's board design, it's graffiti, it's music, but it really seems to be all intermeshed in kind of a unique way.

Dennis McNett  11:31

Yeah. Well, if I had to say a very strong connection with skateboarding and art, it would be that you have to be - well, I'll take that back, you don't have to be - but most people that skateboard are creative. In that it's not like you're going out to play baseball and there's all these rules, and you abide by the rules, and then you get the points that you get at the end. A skateboarder, you can take them and put them in a parking lot where someone would see nothing, and a skateboard would look around and go, 'Wow, I could do an ollie onto that curb.' Or, 'Ooh, look at that banked loading dock. Oh my gosh, I could do this, or that...' So they're spatially, and sculpturally, almost, they look around and they're creative in that way. Because they can come up with... just interact with their environment. And it's not limited by what other sports are. Like, these rules or these, 'This is how you do this, and you have to stay within these parameters.' Skateboarding is wide open. And it's also, in my experience, it's always been wide open to whoever wants to do it. So it's not just like a bunch of meatheads going to play football or something. It's misfits. It's like, whatever community that you're in, whatever your skin tone is, whatever your background is, whatever your preference to whatever, it didn't fucking matter. It's like, 'You want to go skate?' 'Yeah, let's go skate.' You know, and that's it. So in that way, it's creative, too. Like, you're getting all these different perspectives from all these different people. And the common thread is that thing that's got the four wheels on it. And that's it. 

Miranda Metcalf  11:38

Yeah. 

Dennis McNett  12:35

So I think that's a huge difference in, say, any other sport and skateboarding.

Miranda Metcalf  13:22

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. And as I'm thinking about it, too, I know that now there are skate competitions, and certain tricks have certain points, and it is sort of regulated in this way. But that's fairly recent. And I think it really is a creative expression, the way something like dance would be, where it's like, 'How did that look,' I think, has a huge element in the sort of value that it has within the activity. You know, it's not just... something objective, like, 'Did the ball go through the thing or not?' You know, it's an aesthetic judgment.

Dennis McNett  13:56

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I always say that skateboarding, Thrasher Magazine, the tricks in the mid- to early-'80s - even now, but what I can relate to is early, mid-'80s, really - it all had the same aesthetic. So you know, watching Lance Mountain do an invert and it just looks like a king cobra flaring out, you know, and going into this contorted thing, and just the style of it... it's all lanky, and the way he just rolls back into it had the same aesthetic as that Courtlandt Johnson carved skull. You know? And the aesthetic of Thrasher magazine was just kind of like, raw, thrown together, and it was new, and it was exciting. And it just had all the same kind of energy. So I think skateboarding now, too, it's so accepted and just wide open. 

Miranda Metcalf  14:48

Yeah.

Dennis McNett  14:48

It still has this aesthetic to it, where it's got this aesthetic of freedom. Where it's just like, yeah, that dude, or that person, whoever that is, they're having fun doing whatever they're doing. 

Miranda Metcalf  15:00

Yeah. And watching, like, the best of the best on TV doing things in the bowl, it's like, they're flying! Like, they're flying through the air like a damn bird. Yeah, so the literal freedom of movement in the three dimensional space in a way that, yeah, humans don't usually move that way. And so you saw printmaking as a 19 year old in the community college class, and you instantly connected with that look, because you'd been seeing it, you'd been admiring the graphic look. And so what comes after that? At what point do you take on printmaking in a serious way?

Dennis McNett  15:35

Um, I'm gonna say this, and I don't want to dwell on it, and I don't want to eat up this podcast with a bunch of it. But I will say, there was a big chunk of time where I got out of everything that I loved doing, and I got into drugs. So there was a big gap of drug addiction for like a decade. And then once I got cleaned up, and I finished up school, I [thought to myself], hey, you just survived what you survived. And you're not dead like some of your friends. And you're here. What are you going to do with your time? Because that's all you got. You know, it's like, whatever else doesn't matter. It's like, your time is really the only thing of value. And who you spend it with. Right? Or how you spend it. So I was like, what do you want to do with your time here? And it was definitely art. Like, I love creating, and I wanted to get back. And so I went back and finished up, pieced together, kind of the mess I had left behind with an undergrad degree. You know, I'd gotten into printmaking there, and the guy that I learned from, Ken Daly, he was really great. Went to Old Dominion University in Norfolk, and he was super knowledgeable. And he was also just very flexible. He was like, 'Yeah, okay, now you know how to do all of the different print methods...' you know, with him and his guidance, I kind of got into doing sculptural stuff and adding the sculptures and doing those very first sculptural print things with him. And then just connecting with other people, and then eventually I got - I had to work a regular job, too.  So I've always - I've worked since I was a kid, since I was like 12 or 13 years old. I had started a business doing hardwood floors, because I did them for a while. So I was doing hardwood floors, and I was like, 'Man, I did not get clean and survive all that shit to do floors!' I just didn't.... That's not what I'm here for. I applied to grad school. And I got rejected from everywhere but Pratt Institute in New York. And I had never been before. You know, I was in Virginia Beach, and then after that I was a drug addict. And you know, here I am, I'm cleaned up, and I'm ready to roll. And I was like, 'Wow, I'm going to New York.' And I just went up there. And I found... I was like, 'What am I looking at? What's safe and what's not?' And like, everything was new and scary, you know? And so I got there and I kind of hit the [ground] running. Like, I got an apartment, started going to grad school. And the next thing I know, September 11th happened.

Miranda Metcalf  17:04

Yeah.  Oh, no.

Dennis McNett  17:58

And here I am in the middle of New York City, and there's this horrible terrorist - or whatever you believe, I don't think it was necessarily a terrorist attack, you know, but that's for another...

Miranda Metcalf  18:10

That's a whole 'nother podcast. Yeah.

Dennis McNett  18:13

So anyway, yeah, that's kind of how I just kind of [dove] in to... I got into the print program at Pratt, and I started meeting all of these people. And I started - my first internship I got was with this woman, Kathy Caraccio. And she's a total badass. Like, she had a print press in New York for over 30 years in Manhattan. And to do that in Manhattan, and keep it that long, is saying something. Right? And she did it kind of... very DIY, and very, like, she had her collection and her methods of doing things, and her ways of keeping it going. And she taught me. I learned a lot from her. I learned how to pinch pennies, and how you could get by with not a lot of money, and you know, how to hustle some, too. Because she could hustle.

Miranda Metcalf  19:05

Yeah, that's a huge part of keeping a project like that alive, which no one teaches you or tells you.

Dennis McNett  19:10

Yeah, you can't learn that shit in school. I learned some of it on the street, when I was getting in trouble, but from Kathy it was like, okay, this is legitimate. And then I got an internship. [There was an] instructure there named Bob Blanton, and he was teaching a graduate silkscreen class. And he kept watching me, and he came over to me one day, he goes, 'Hey, do you need a job?' And I was like, 'Yeah, I want a job. Doing this? Screenprinting?' He was like, 'Yeah!' So he owns Brand X Editions in New York. And at the time, it was down by... kind of between Chinatown and Tribeca. And I remember going in there, and I'm like, 'Wow, this is printmaking?' You know, what are we doing? We're printing a Chuck Close print. How many colors is that? 210! What? How big is it? It's like, five by eight feet! Are you fucking kidding me? All right. And that's like, right when I'm getting there, to New York. Like, after September 11th stuff calmed down, and grad school got going. And I was doing some construction work to pay bills, and doing full-time grad class, and then I'm working at Brand X and interning with Kathy. So I was doing a lot of stuff. And within a couple months, he had me printing those Chuck Close prints. He said, 'You're going to print these.' And I'm like, 'Man, I don't know.' He's like, 'Yeah, you're gonna do it!' You know? And you had to - I remember you had to... the sheets of paper, like I said, they're huge. They're like, almost five by eight feet... and they're on this table. And you didn't have two people moving the paper. You had to kick air over it and float over to the vacuum table. And if you hit the edge of the table, that's it! That print's fucked! So if you had 110 layers on that print, when it got dinged on the edge of the table, it's done. And those prints were selling for 35k apiece. I was so nervous! I was just like, 'I don't know, Bob! I don't know about this.' He's like, 'Yeah, you're gonna do it.' So - and I remember floating that first one over, and I'm like, 'Okay, it's going... it's going...' And it went, BAM! Creased right across that Chuck Close print. I'm like, 'Oh my God.' And I looked at him. and he was looking at me, and I was like, 'Oh, he's gonna fucking kill me.' And he knows like 10 different types of martial arts! I forgot to say. He's like a real ninja. 

Miranda Metcalf  19:10

Oh, I didn't know that about Bob!

Dennis McNett  21:06

Yeah, oh, my God. He's competed worldwide. Like, he'll fuck you up! So anyway, I float the next one over - BAM! I'm like, 'Oh, God!' And he looks at me, and he goes, 'Don't do that again.' I'm like, 'Oh, God!' And then I got it. The third one, I got it. And then from that point on, I did two of those big editions. One of them went into - there was a Met retrospective for Chuck Close. And we pulled stage proofs, so every 10 colors, you would have a print leading up to the finished print. 

Miranda Metcalf  22:03

Oh, cool. 

Dennis McNett  22:04

And... I can tell you a funny Chuck Close story if you want. 

Miranda Metcalf  22:08

I would love to hear one, yeah. 

Dennis McNett  22:09

Alright, so I'm working at Brand X Editions, and Chuck Close keeps coming in. And I [would get introduced to him], they'd say, 'This is Dennis, he's making your prints,' basically. Like, 'He's mixing your colors and printing your prints.' And he would never remember me. And he came in dozens of times. [Each time, they] introduced him to me, and then I remember, I was about to quit. I was about to leave Brand X. And we had finished the edition, and Chuck Close comes in, got introduced again, didn't remember me. So we had three tables lined out. We had the finished prints, [we had the table for signing, and] we had the table for the finished [editioned] prints. So we're moving them. Me and my friend Jay are moving from table to table. So we're taking a print, I'm taking the two corners up here, and he's taking the two corners at the bottom, we're moving them in front of Chuck Close, and he signs the print. And then we move it to the next table. And we get through about half the stack. And I look at him, and I'm thinking, 'Man, this motherfucker is going to remember me this time! I don't care what it takes. He's going to remember my name. Or at least my face.' Right? So I pinned the print down with my thumbs so my friend Jay couldn't move the next one. And a few seconds went by, and Chuck Close kind of looks up, and Bob looks at me like, 'What are you doing?' And I looked at Chuck Close, and I said, 'Hey, man, when are you going to stop doing all these big heads and maybe try something different for a change, like  some cows or something?' And I said cows or something because we were doing some Alex Katz cows that were all over the place.

Miranda Metcalf  23:29

Okay, yeah. 

Dennis McNett  23:30

And he looked at me for a few seconds, and Bob looked like he was about to shoot laser beams out of his eyes, I mean, vaporize me right there. And so there was this weird silence, and then we just kind of went back to doing the thing. And I was like, 'He'll remember me this time.' So then fast forward, like, seven years later. Almost 10 years later, really. I'm driving. I'm listening to NPR. And there's a special on Chuck Close. And they're talking about how he has this disease, basically, where he can't recognize faces. 

Miranda Metcalf  24:05

Uh-huh!

Dennis McNett  24:06

And I'm thinking to myself, 'Dennis, you're such a fucking egotistical piece of shit to think that this guy should remember your face anyway! And he's got this disability where he can't recognize your face!' And I just felt like such a dumbass. But that's the story.

Miranda Metcalf  24:23

Oh my gosh. Yeah, and then you're just like sitting there in the car, and you're the only one in the universe who knows that story. Like, you're the only one who knows what was going on inside you, and you're just sitting there with that knowledge! Yeah, that's rough. That is rough. I feel like the universe loves to humble us like that.

Dennis McNett  24:45

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, over and over again. 

Miranda Metcalf  24:47

Over and over and over... at least, I know that for me. Like, the second I think, 'I deserve this,' you know, the universe has to come in and be like, 'Actually, a whole bunch was going on you didn't know about! Because you're not the center of the universe!' And I'm like, "Aw, damn!' You know, every time. 

Dennis McNett  25:08

Yeah, absolutely.

Miranda Metcalf  25:08

Oh, that's so cool. I actually had Bob on the podcast, like, years ago. 

Dennis McNett  25:12

Oh, really?

Miranda Metcalf  25:13

And I got to hear about Brand X, and printing for Jeff Koons. And talked a little bit of Chuck Close. But yeah, that's so funny. He did not mention that he has competed in the deadly arts around the world. Didn't come up. But that's great. Yeah.

Dennis McNett  25:31

I'm still very good - I call him every now and then. And he's very much a mentor. Having that time with him taught me all kinds of stuff.

Miranda Metcalf  25:38

Yeah, yeah, he was great. He was pretty early on. I think he was like an early, kind of big get, like one of these artists and artisans that I just was really freaked out to interview. Because I was like, 'I'm so new at this!' But he was so nice. He was so easy to talk to, and just had such a cool story. Yeah, cool! Well, I didn't know you worked for him. That's really neat. And so when you were leaving, at this point, are you really focusing on your own practices a lot? And what you're making? Are you showing? Are you starting to do community stuff? Where was this kind of transition from Brand X into what goes [into] your practice at that point?

Dennis McNett  25:38

Yeah. So I left because I had graduated from Pratt Institute, and they hired me right when I graduated. So I taught there for almost a decade. And I also had gotten a studio and stuff on my own. On my own time, not in grad school. So I was starting to get a little [] in New York, and definitely the skateboard world. Like, I had gotten an email from Antihero in San Francisco. And they were like, 'Hey, do you want to - we saw some of your prints that you gave this woman that owns a [skate shop] in Brooklyn named Amy Gunther, and her work's out here, and we saw this print. And we want to know if you want to do some graphics for us.' And I told you my history with skateboarding, and seeing those kind of influential things I had seen, and I was like, 'This is a joke! This isn't real.' You know? And then I was like, whatever, uh, yeah, and the guy's like, 'Yeah, you want to do a series of boards?' And I was like, 'Fuck, yeah, I want to do a series of boards!' You know. And I was like, 'No way!' Because for me, I always say like, that's like a show at the Guggenheim!

Miranda Metcalf  26:15

Totally!

Dennis McNett  26:15

That's like... I was so stoked. And I did the graphics, and they were happy. And I had been out of the loop because of addiction stuff, and just because I was getting older. But Antihero was a big deal. And once those boards came out, I started getting all these other companies reaching out to me... eventually it was like, 'Hey, do you want to do a limited edition shoe?' And I was like, 'What? Shoe?' Like, 'What are you talking about...' I never set out to do any shoes! I'm just making prints, you know? 

Miranda Metcalf  26:15

Yeah. 

Dennis McNett  26:17

But it ended up - that was a weird thing, too, but yeah, that kind of evolved. And eventually, the teaching was getting in the way of the studio practice. To answer your question about how I got into [other] things, or sculptural things, or how I moved past just doing prints, and working with the community... the very first thing I ever did was, Jeffrey Deitch used to do this art parade in New York. And it went down West Broadway, and it was really cool. Like, it was all artists would just come up with stuff. And this year, he was taking submissions for it. And I was like, man, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna submit to this thing, and I'm going to make whatever it takes to do it. I'm going to do it. And I was reading some Nordic mythology at the time, and I came up with this whole story. I kind of rewrote the ending of Ragnarok, and I had it [where] Fenrir's sister comes up from her Underworld and finds her brother's carcass on the battlefield and resurrects him, and a wolf-bat was born. So he flies the earth and destroys the gods, right. So it was a rewritten kind of ending that I came up with, and I proposed this whole thing of how I would make this giant wolf-bat and bring it down West Broadway with this Nordic army, Hel's army. Not Hell, Hel. If you don't know, she ran the underworld in Nordic mythology. She was one of Loki's children. But it was her army, and this giant wolf-bat, her brother Fenrir, that had been resurrected. So I built it. I built this big wolf-bat, it was like the size of a car, and it had these movable wings. And it had two drummers that I knew that got on the back and were kind of facing each other playing, and everybody was covered in fake blood and fur boots and these masks that I made that were print covered, and it was awesome. It was killer. It didn't look like anything else in the parade either. It was like, everything else is bright colors, and it's like, ah! ...And then we're coming down the street, and it's like, it's pretty heavy metal. You know? But people loved it. And it actually got mentioned in the New York Times with the parade. And then that changed things too. And I remember at the end of that, some of my friends taking their masks off and looking at their face, and it looked like they were years younger. And I was like, 'What is that? That's so weird!' You know? And it was like, what it was is they had dropped all their fears. And they could just be free, because they had this mask, and they were part of this bigger thing. So they felt safe to just, like, cut [loose] - I mean, people were acting kind of savage and "rahhh," and it was rad. And at the end of it, everyone was kind of glowing. And I'm like, 'Man, I gotta do this again!' 

Miranda Metcalf  30:04

Very cool. That's beautiful.

Dennis McNett  30:40

And I really liked the idea of... because it was my first experience in New York, too, you know, I went to galleries and I'm like, 'Man, this is so stuffy!' And like, I don't feel welcome here. And I don't feel like the people that are out on the street would feel welcome in here. It's like, only certain people are welcome in here. And I didn't want that. I wanted to make some stuff that anybody could participate in, walk up, and that's how the processions kind of got going. I was like, 'Man, I want somebody to be able to make their own mask and just be this person, or character, and participate in this parade.' Or whatever we were doing, whatever happening or ceremony. And just have that experience, because you can't get that in a gallery. You know, like, you'll remember that experience. You'll remember setting that Viking ship on fire and watching it burn. Or you'll remember setting off fireworks in the middle of Chelsea, going the wrong way down 10th Avenue against the cabs with a big Viking ship. You'll remember that shit! You might not remember walking into what was on the wall in that stuffy gallery where you didn't feel welcome. So I started doing the performative things, and the sculptures, and it was great. And I still love doing that stuff. And I feel like I'm constantly learning with each different group of people that I work with. And you talk about the humble pie. It's like I'm constantly eating that humble pie, because my ego will take the steering wheel for a second, and then something will happen and I'll be like, 'Wow. Wow, man.' Like, how rad and almost spiritual was that? You know, so... I don't know if I answered your question, or if I just went on a rant, but...

Miranda Metcalf  32:18

No, I really love everything that you were talking about. And for me, I mean, it sounds so much like a spiritual experience. You know, and the way - I know everyone has very much their own definitions of such things - but it's that kind of transcendence and community. I feel like that's where God lives.  God as it is useful to you, right? Like, [maybe not everyone] listening. But it's like that connection between people, that feeling of abandoning the ego, abandoning the self, abandoning the ticker tape narrative in your head of who you are, and how you need to look, and what you need to do, and where you're trying to go. And to be present. And to be... like, did you say "feral," I think was a word that you used? Like, I think that sounds deeply spiritual to me. And gathering in ritual to incite that experience is... I can't think of a more ancient human practice. Like, that idea of, 'If we get together and we do these things that are outside of our normal routine, we're able to transcend something,' is very, very old and ancient and beautiful. So yeah, I loved everything you just said about it. And so a few times, you mentioned this connection to your work and Nordic mythology. And so of course, you think of Nordic mythology, and you think of the Nordic countries, which is where my people are from, and where my cousins still live. And then I also think, of course, of Norwegian death metal, right? So I feel like there's this really interesting kind of tertiary connection between all these cultural points, between like, ancient Nordic pagan ritual, and metal, and skateboarding, and art. And so when did Nordic mythology kind of come into influencing what you wanted to produce?

Dennis McNett  32:41

Yeah. Well, I can't say that it's only Nordic mythology. Like, I like stories. And I always say... how do I want to say this? Growing up in my home, I wasn't encouraged to, 'Hey, check out this novel, or read this story.' And so a lot of the storytelling and stuff that I was into was Star Wars. And people laugh at that or whatever, but man, that shit is deep! Like, it's a classic story, good and evil, they talk about some spiritual stuff. And it's also like, is there actually good and evil? Or is it just, you're kind of learning from both experiences? And... it's like a whole thing, right? So any kind of storytelling... Gwar, I always talk about the band Gwar. Some people are like, 'Ha ha, you like Gwar?' Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you look at what Gwar has done - and they just came out with a new documentary I think everyone should watch - because I've been saying this for fucking years. They are one of the geniuses of our time, because they've managed to do what they're doing for over 30 years. Over 30. I think it's getting closer to 40. But they are interactive with the audience, they make their own costumes, they have an ongoing narrative that has been changing and growing for over 30 years. Like a history! [You could treat it like a] fucking Bible if you wanted to. Like, it's... where did these characters come from? And then what happened, and then what happened? And you have all this documentation, you have all these characters, you have all this history. It's interactive with the audience, it has music... they do their own comics, their own videos, their own everything. They work with every single medium. It's interactive, it's collaborative. You know, they're bouncing ideas, which is not easy to do with that many artists, and it's grown and morphed into what it is now, and it's insane. I think it's... but it's all storytelling. And all those guys are - it's not like they're dumb-dumbs, like the Insane Clown Posse or something. They're smart. They're doing social commentary up on stage, or they're seeing stuff that's happening in the world and society and politics and going, 'Oh, my God, this is fucking disgusting.' And then they're regurgitating it back to you in a disgusting way. I think they're genius. I think what they have is amazing. So in getting back to the mythology or the storytelling, I love stories. I love storytelling. I love mythology. And I believe in a lot of different things. And I think when you get into religion or mythology, it's all talking about the same thing. When you get down to the core of it, especially with the religion, it's someone trying to describe exactly what you were saying earlier, about that moment when you release your ego, and you're just there in the moment, and you're feral, and you're free, and you're just experiencing life. And I think that's why I'm drawn to... not only - Nordic mythology was just at the time, right? And the metal [music] just kind of stuck. It's like, well, your stuff's got wolves, and it's high energy. And it's this, that, well, let's play some metal music. I mean, I'm totally open to shaking it up. It's just kind of like, the metal stuck. 

Miranda Metcalf  37:46

Yeah. 

Dennis McNett  37:46

And the Nordic mythology, people grab on to that. And I see why. But there's all kinds of stuff that I have experienced or read... like, my blind grandfather - I don't talk about this a lot, and I think maybe it's because they weren't supposed to talk about it - but he was native. He was Cherokee. And I remember my grandmother, if I was... I remember her doing this, or something was going on, and she would - I remember she'd have a cigarette, like some tobacco, and she'd say something kind of to the tobacco, and then she'd blow it on me. Right? And I didn't think about as the time, but it's like, that's not... that's not in the Bible! Hey, that's not in our Baptist upbringing! What's that? You know? 

Miranda Metcalf  38:33

Yeah! Yeah. 

Dennis McNett  38:34

So I've definitely read up on some native culture, I've participated in some ceremonies, I've been to Peru and worked with []. I've had these different experiences, and it absolutely influences the work, but so does GWAR, and so [do] all these other things. And like I was trying to describe earlier, I think all of them have... if you're paying attention, even watching this GWAR documentary - and I don't mean to get hung up on them - but I'm watching it and listening to it, and I'm watching these guys get emotional, and listening to how they were and how they move through things now. And it's like, wow, they had a huge spiritual experience. And you know, we talked about ego earlier. Sometimes ego's got to drive the ship to get you to where you're going. Right? So it gets you to that place. But then it's got to get out of the way to get the lesson, right? Or to get the experience. And go, 'Oh, wow, now I get it.' But you had to be there first. You had to get there. So the ego had to drive you, like, 'I'm good enough to do this,' and blah blah blah, and then you get there and you have the experience, and you're like, 'Wow. That wasn't me at all. That was way bigger than me.'

Miranda Metcalf  39:56

Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. I really connect with that idea of - it's this cycle of the ego being the engine, right? And that's sort of what keeps you moving forward. And then I think a lot of spiritual seeking, and also artmaking seeking, comes down to the moments that ego does fall back. And there's so many artists, from Michelangelo and... all kinds of [artists], that speak to, 'I'm a vessel for something bigger.' Like, in my making, I'm not the spark of the creation, or maybe I'm the spark of the creation, but the actual making is something that happens kind of beyond me and comes from the universe, or God, or the collective unconscious, or whatever it is. And so, yeah, they're very, very interconnected. And I think practices like you have that involve gathering of people, and that collective shared experience, it just heightens that. It heightens it in a visceral way, and then also kind of in a metaphysical way as well, I think. And when you're doing the collective works, the second you bring in one other person, it's going to alter it, let alone bringing in many more people. So what's that balance like for you, between like, 'I want to see this manifest in this way,' but also understanding that all other humans are completely unpredictable and uncontrollable?

Dennis McNett  41:23

Yeah. I think the best example of this that I've ever had, like what you're describing, is I had built this - it was actually two 30-foot Viking ships. And I had a show at a gallery, and we had these two Viking ships downstairs. And I had gone a week before, and kind of mapped out a parade session through Chelsea in Manhattan. Like, what I thought was going to be a safe route. And I was like, 'Well, this is how this is gonna go!' I had it all mapped out in my head. And I handed out like 150 battle axes to participants, and we started parading this Viking ship down the street. And I started to pull it towards where it was intended to go, and the huge crowd of people pulled it the opposite direction.  And I couldn't do anything about it. And I was like, 'Well, I guess that's just how it's supposed to go.' So we went, and we went the wrong way down 10th Avenue. And there's cabs swerving out of the way of this giant ship, and these people with battle axes, and there's a drummer inside, and he's wailing on the drums. And there's fireworks shooting off of the ship and bouncing off of the buildings. And it was nuts! And I was just like, 'Okay, well, it's out of my hands. Like, I can only set the stage.' And I feel like a lot of times, that's what ends up happening, is I can set the stage and drum up the energy. I'll drum it all up, and I'll get people excited to be in the stuff, and then it's out of my hands, really. Like, I don't have any control over anyone else or what they do. But it has, knock on wood - to this point - has always worked out in a really great way. 

Miranda Metcalf  42:12

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Dennis McNett  43:05

In an unexpected way. Like, usually better than I had ever thought it could.

Miranda Metcalf  43:10

Are there ever any kind of civic consequences? Like, do you get a ticket for driving a Viking ship the wrong way down 10th Avenue?

Dennis McNett  43:19

That was the weirdest thing. Like, I remember people coming up to me, especially people that had been in New York for a long, long time. And they said a couple of things. They said, 'Man, I haven't seen this energy since, like, the '80s.' They would say, like, 'This is what New York used to be like.' 

Miranda Metcalf  43:36

Yeah. 

Dennis McNett  43:37

And I remember another thing was, people were saying, how did we not get arrested? Because yeah, we didn't only go the wrong way down the street. We were lighting off fireworks the whole way, there was a drummer inside of it, and then [there was a band at] the end that was waiting, blocking the street, that broke into a set as we pulled in. And then we were lighting off Chinese lanterns that were floating through the buildings as all this was happening. And the cops drove by, and they looked, and they rolled real slow, and then they just kept going. And I was like, 'Whoa, dude! Did we just open some kind of portal and they couldn't see us? What happened?'

Miranda Metcalf  44:17

Oh my gosh! They were just like, 'Surely they must have a permit for that! No one would do that...'

Dennis McNett  44:22

Right! A similar thing happened in Philadelphia when they had an SGC there, and I built a big ship, and we did the procession [around] this condo thing, lighting off fireworks, doing the same kind of thing. And I remember these two Philly cops walked up, and they were just sitting there and they were watching. And I kind of snuck up behind them to see what they were saying. And they watched it for a while, and they watched all the fireworks, and watched the skateboarding, and they watched all this stuff. And then one of them looks at the other, and says, 'Eh, do you see anything?' And he goes, 'No, let's get out of here.' And they both just walked off. And I was like, 'Wow, that just happened!' You know? And luckily - knock on wood again - that's kind of the way these things have gone. The only one that I've ever gotten permission for was the one that Ryan put together, and it's because Ryan put it together. And it was, like, done correctly. 

Miranda Metcalf  45:17

Yeah. 

Dennis McNett  45:17

And everything was thought of, and it was very considerate. And usually I'll just kind of ask for forgiveness or just disappear before anyone shows up.

Miranda Metcalf  45:27

That's great. That's really great. Yeah, well, I don't know if you know, but we're hosting Print Santa Fe, which will be the first year. It's sort of like an offshoot of Print Austin. And I don't know if - do you know about Zozobra? Have you heard about Zozobra? So Zozobra actually just happened in Santa Fe. And it's a giant, creepy, kind of looks a little bit like a Jigsaw sort of puppet, that people put everything they want to let go of inside of it on messages and they burn it up. And it's this huge thing. So anyway, I'm just saying, Santa Fe loves a big wild thing. So if you... It's April next year, so I just want to throw that out there. That we'll be doing things - I know that Huck and Carlos are going to come out for it, and a few other people. So just, I'm sure you've got lots on your plate, but Santa Fe loves a big pagan burning already.

Dennis McNett  46:22

Yeah. Well, I'm open to all kinds of things.

Miranda Metcalf  46:25

Cool. Cool. Well, we'll chat. And also, part of the theme of some of the interviews I'm doing for this month is just talking about the Outlaws, you know, speaking of Carlos and Huck. And I've been asking people just kind of briefly, what is their perspective of what that means? Like, what is Outlaw Printmaking?

Dennis McNett  46:45

Okay, one thing I didn't mention about New York is when I went to grad school, the department was very, very set on abstract work, conceptual work. Everything that I was doing, they were saying was garbage, pretty much. Sometimes in a nice way, and sometimes not. And I was bummed. I was just like, man, you know... because it took me a lot to be there. To get there. And luckily, I met Bill Fick. He was teaching at Pratt. So I became his teaching assistant. And he was like, 'Man, you need to meet Richard Mock.' Okay, so I went to Richard's, and he lived in this old SPCA building. It was like brick faced, and it was kind of dingy. And in one corner was his printing press, and in another corner was his bed. He had a little makeshift kitchen that he had set up. And this guy had been doing politically charged linoleum cuts for the New York Times for over 20 years. And everywhere you looked, like, knee deep, were blocks that he had carved throughout his life. And I was like, 'This is the fucking real deal.'  This is the first real deal artist I've ever met. And he was so generous with his time, and he was just telling me all this stuff. And he was just like, 'Here, try this, and try that.' And he was like, 'Stop listening to what those people are saying at the school.' He was like, 'Surround yourself with like-minded people, and find your tribe and people that are supporting the work that you're doing, and ignore that stuff.' And I left there, and I felt like a fucking samurai. I was like, 'Man, I got Bill Fick on my side! I got Richard Mock on my side! And I'm gonna start collecting my tribe.' And I remember doing that, and I remember the stuffy print people that were like, 'You guys make garbage. You make illustrative work, your stuff ain't shit.' And I remember those people looking down on us all the time. And then there was a show that Richard was in, and Tom was in, and Tony Fitzpatrick, and I think Sue Coe, and it was called "Outlaw Printmakers." And I remember - by that time, I had met all these people - you know, I had known [] since community college, actually. I used to hang out with his cousin all the time. But anyway, so we all kind of knew each other, that show happened, and then the Outlaw Printmaker thing kind of stuck. So from my perspective, it was a gathering of this tribe of like-minded people that Richard had suggested come together. 

Miranda Metcalf  47:47

Yeah. Yeah. 

Dennis McNett  49:12

So that's kind of like - It's not like we're outlaws! We're making prints! But "Outlaw" in the sense that we did what we wanted to do, and do what we want to do, with the type of work and the type of influence that we want, whether it's skateboarding, or it's metal, or it's whatever the influence is, that's our influence. It didn't come out of a Janssen art history book, and we don't care about how you wipe your fucking plate. Like, it's just, this is how we do it. Just, I can respect what you do, just give me a little respect for what I do. You know?

Miranda Metcalf  49:45

Yeah, yeah. 

Dennis McNett  49:46

So that, to me, there's your answer. That's the Outlaw Printmakers.

Miranda Metcalf  49:50

I think that's great. Yeah, I think that really captures a lot of my understanding of why Outlaw Printmakers became a thing, and was a needed counter to a really narrow definition of what quote-unquote "good" or "acceptable" printmaking was. That's great. Well, Dennis, we've reached our hour recording mark. So I've just got to ask you if there's anything in the future that you want to plug, and you want people to look for, and then also, where can they find you and follow you to see upcoming stuff? 

Dennis McNett  50:24

Okay, well, I'm going to be going down to Oso Bay and Corpus Christi for the Oso Bay Biennial that Ryan O'Malley's putting together. And then HalloWolfbat's coming up, so I'll be in Chicago for that with the big puppet stuff, and then there's a residency I'll be doing in Oregon directly after that. And if you want to follow what I do, you can go to Instagram, or wolfbat.com is my website.

Miranda Metcalf  50:47

Cool! Well, I'll put those in the show notes. And thank you so much for the chat. This has been really fun.

Dennis McNett  50:54

I appreciate you reaching out and doing this.

Miranda Metcalf  50:58

And that's our show for this week. Join me again next week, where our guest will be Carlos Hernandez. We'll talk about his incredible career as a poster artist, collaborating with his childhood hero Ed "Big Daddy" Roth, hosting some of the most wild and crazy print events out there, and Burning Bones Press. You won't want to miss it. This episode, like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing by Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Webber. I'll see you next week.