Episode 166 | On-Site at the IFPDA Print Fair

Published November 15, 2022

Transcript

Miranda Metcalf  00:15

Hello, print friends, and welcome. I'm your host, Miranda Metcalf. Each week, I chat with artists who use print based media to do something beyond the expected. This is a bilingual podcast, so if you subscribe to us, you'll be getting episodes in English with me, as well as in Spanish with Reinaldo Gil Zambrano. Together, we speak to printmakers around the globe about their practice and passions in the world of printmaking. Hello, Print Friend is brought to you by Speedball Art Products, who've been offering a diverse range of high quality products to your practice since 1997. If you're looking to add some pizzazz to your practice, check out their new line of additive glitter. Add a sprinkle of this glitter to any Speedball fabric screenprinting ink to bring a touch of shimmer to your next design. This additive glitter can be used in nearly any ratio, whether your sparkling vision is more subtle or dripping with scintillating shine. Check out the link in the show notes. This week's episode is the third and final in the installment of recordings I made at the IFPDA Print Fair in New York. For those of you who might not be familiar with the IFPDA, it stands for International Fine Print Dealers' Association, and their annual fair is the world's finest. It spans from antique masterworks [by] people like Albrecht Durer to inks-just-dried editions from top publishers like Tamarind and Tandem. There's also a tabletop section with smaller and emerging galleries and publishers at more accessible price points. I, myself, might have bought a little Duke Riley woodcut from USF's Graphicstudio in this part of the fair. This episode is a doubleheader. You'll hear my wonderful conversation with the artist Derrick Adams, talking about his exposure to collaborative printmaking and how it affected the way he sees his entire practice, followed by a chat with our patron saint of printmaking, the philanthropist Jordan Schnitzer. We talk about why he started collecting prints and how he came to be the owner of the world's largest print collection in the country. So, without further ado, sit back, relax, and enjoy this trip to the IFPDA Print Fair. Hi, Derrick, how are you doing?

Derrick Adams  02:36

I'm good. It's a pleasure to be here. Should I say who I am?

Miranda Metcalf  02:40

Please, yeah!

Derrick Adams  02:41

I'm Derrick Adams, multidisciplinary artist, based in Brooklyn.

Miranda Metcalf  02:45

Beautiful. So as you mentioned, you're multidisciplinary. This is sculpture, painting, paper collage, NFTs, you've collaborated with chefs. How does printmaking fit into all of this for you and your practice?

Derrick Adams  02:59

For me, printmaking started probably in 2012. And it was really the beginning of testing out the collaborative structure of artmaking. Because printmaking is a practice that involves not just an individual, but sometimes a group. A master printer, facilities, facility management. So all those things became such an integral part of my practice starting in 2012. But it was out of curiosity, to kind of think about transforming images into prints, which, before 2012, I was really resistant. Because to make a print, you think about... for me, it was more about, did I want to see something more than one time?

Miranda Metcalf  03:44

Right.

Derrick Adams  03:44

You know? So after I kind of dealt with that concept, in a way... I started to realize... being able to share one image with multiple people, it became way more enticing as a practice.

Miranda Metcalf  04:01

For sure. And did you do any printmaking when you were at Pratt or Columbia, or kind of in your personal journey before the collaborative stuff?

Derrick Adams  04:09

Yes, in my undergrad years at Pratt, I did quite a few print projects. And I kind of learned just the basic process of making different types of prints, silkscreen, etchings, different monoprints. So you know, I learned the technical part of printmaking in my earlier career as an artist, and in 2012, it became like a rebirth of stepping back into it, but in a more professional way.

Miranda Metcalf  04:39

Yeah.

Derrick Adams  04:40

I became really aware of the types of paper, the types of formats to establish an edition, things that I - you know, as a younger artist, it was really more about just working on the physical part of the etching or the silkscreen, and at that time, you're just printing on whatever paper you could afford when you're in undergrad.

Miranda Metcalf  05:02

Right! Totally.

Derrick Adams  05:02

So it was a different... totally different outcome.

Miranda Metcalf  05:05

Yeah. So what was your first experience with collaborative printmaking? Who were you working with, and how did that start?

Derrick Adams  05:11

In 2012, I was invited to Middlebury College to do a print project, which was part of a class. And the students who participated in making this print with me received credit for the class. So that was my first print. And at that time, I was heavily into collage. So my thing was, like, how can I transform my collage into prints? Because I felt like my collages were really more one-off forms of expression, and one-off forms of problem solving. So I never thought about the collage itself being something that could be repetitive as a print, because of the layering and different things that I added on to the work. But when I started communicating with the professors at Middlebury, and when I arrived at Middlebury to start the print project, a lot of the students were already informed of my practice, and they had researched me and researched my work. And so we established this... almost like an assembly line, where we did the collage elements separately. And then we created a system where I would do the print, one student would actually cut out the collage elements, one group of students would adhere the elements to the paper. And so we did it like that for... maybe a week, I was there. And I never really thought about my practice as being collaborative in that way. Because everything was kind of channeling through my brain onto a surface. But also I learned how to really communicate in a particular way, how to delegate, and also how to be collaborative in a way that everyone can feel a part of the making of the work. So that was the beginning of it. And it was at a time where I was really in my beginning stages of my practice, and experimenting with a lot of things. So communicating the instruction of how to make my work was definitely a challenge, as an artist who really did not make prints before. But it put me in a position now where collaborating is something that I look forward to when I'm making prints. And I love to take the advice of master printers, and people who are more experienced in the field. And I implement those instructions a lot in my practice in the studio as well.

Miranda Metcalf  07:32

That's so beautiful. Yeah. So it sounds like it kind of opened up this whole collaborative side of thinking about your image making.

Derrick Adams  07:39

Yes, I mean, it's very important, because in my studio, yes, there's moments where as artists, you work in isolation. And even if you have studio assistants there, you still have to create things that people can't help you with. And so I think that even the experience of working in Middlebury [and] making the print actually helped me organize my studio now, and the way that I work with my studio assistants and different people who come into my studio to assist me in different things.

Miranda Metcalf  08:07

Beautiful. Can you tell us a little bit about "Eye Candy," which you made at Tandem, that's the big welcome piece at the fair here?

Derrick Adams  08:14

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, "Eye Candy" was a concept... before it was named "Eye Candy," I was interested in creating an artwork with this found image from an old 1968-70s Ebony Magazine. And it was an advertisement in the magazine for a men's underwear line. And it was a very small ad that was about, maybe, a couple of inches in the publication. But it really drew my eyes because of the provocative nature of the image, but also, I was interested in it as it relates to the time in which it was produced, which was around the Civil Rights era. And thinking about the relationship to style and fashion and individualism at a time where people were also collectively gathering and thinking about protest and human rights. And, you know, having those two things share the same publication was very interesting to me as an artist. And I thought of that image as being just as powerful as a protest image. This idea of this very confident Black male figure, front-facing, looking at the consumer, and being very present. And when I started thinking about that image in its original form, which was very small, I wanted to blow it up really big and make it human scale. And also wanted to embellish on the design, on the image, to be more in line with the way I work with my own work. And so I brought in Tandem, when I was invited to be the commissioned artist for IFPDA, I automatically thought about this piece. I've been at the fair before, I've seen amazing installations. Swoon was one of the artists, who is a dear friend, [and] I really loved her installation here. So I knew exactly the format of the entry. And I was excited to introduce this work here for the first time. And working with Tandem, I knew it would come through in a way - or even more so - than I imagined. Because working with Tandem is always a 'Yes,' when it comes to projects. They're never like, 'I don't know if we can do it.' It always starts with a 'Yes,' and then we try to figure out the best way to execute it. And when I told them that I wanted the image to be repeated five times as one image - which is sometimes a challenge when you're presenting prints, editions - to make a five panel single piece is not the most practical way to think about a print! But I've done so many prints so far, I felt like doing a print again would require a little bit more ambition and something that I've only dreamed about doing.

Miranda Metcalf  11:08

Great, yeah.

Derrick Adams  11:09

And it was possible. So I felt "Eye Candy" was named when I really started thinking about the placement, the concept, the history behind it, my personal relationship to being drawn to the image, and the context of it being very provocative, and almost sumptuous. And so "Eye Candy" became the title for the piece.

Miranda Metcalf  11:32

A lot of people who listen to the podcast are young printmakers who, I think, dream about having a collaborative studio one day. I know that's a big ambition. As someone who's worked collaboratively a lot, what would you say to someone who has this idea that they want to go and maybe someday work with wonderful artists like yourself? From the artist's perspective, what do you want them to know?

Derrick Adams  11:53

I think, for younger artists, I think it's really important to work at print shops. Just as an intern, apply for internship positions, or assistant positions, or even residencies in some of the print shops that have these residency programs. Like Lower East Side Printshop has a keyholder residency, where you also get assistance and technical support from the master printers there. So I personally feel, just from my experience with printmaking, that it's a neverending education. Because what happens with printmaking, you always step it up for the next thing. So you master one technique, and you do the output for that, and then the next thing you create, you try to create something more ambitious, something that is more challenging for you. And I personally would recommend just creating a community that's supportive of experimentation, a community that don't look at printmaking as a big expense, but think about alternative ways of doing printmaking. Where there are so many different ways, that are inexpensive, to make things, to print things. And think about the audience in which you're trying to communicate with, with your work. I think that's essential, because that audience becomes your support system. So many different things beyond the community within the print shop, you also have to think about the community in which these things will be seen and experienced. So I definitely recommend, if you are really serious [about] printmaking as a profession, as a career, that I would personally get immersed in the culture. And institutional support would be essential, and interning at places that will allow you to grow and even print in your free time, I recommend that.

Miranda Metcalf  12:01

For sure, for sure. Yeah, and it sounds like it's a nice counter to some of the isolation that you spoke to as an artist, you know, how you can work a lot on your own.

Derrick Adams  13:56

You have to, you know, because there's things that you're learning... and you know, I've seen it in print shops, where an artist is working on something and they get a little stuck with how to navigate in a certain way, to get an outcome they're trying to achieve. And there's someone in the print shop who'll say, 'Oh, I know how to do that. You just do this and that...' and you're like, 'Oh!' Because this process, once you get it right, with a test print, you just run it through. But that first right thing is important, because that first right thing has to be right [however] many times you print it, it has to be like that.

Miranda Metcalf  14:32

Yeah, absolutely. Do you have a favorite process out of - you know, it sounds like you've worked in many different print media. Is it etching, silkscreen, is there something that you feel like your aesthetic and your voice translates to in a particularly strong way?

Derrick Adams  14:48

I like combining different approaches, like digital, and silkscreen, and color blocking, with all types of processes to make the image more layered. Make the language more embedded in the material. And to make the image richer. When people see it, they have to spend time kind of dissecting what exactly is going on. What exactly they're looking at, how is it put together? I like to use various forms of technology with making prints, but also use, again, collage. And you know, from learning all these different approaches, working with all different types of print shops, I've kind of combined all of these structures and techniques to be in line with my practice in the studio. When I'm making my paintings, I'm making my sculpture, I think that my printmaking practice is in line now with the way I make art, with my unique works.

Miranda Metcalf  15:53

Absolutely. That's beautiful.

Derrick Adams  15:55

Yeah, yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  15:55

Well, thank you so much, Derrick. It's been so wonderful. I'm a big fan of your work, and it's really lovely.

Derrick Adams  16:01

Thank you, I appreciate it. Thank you. I look forward to seeing the rest of the work in the fair.

Miranda Metcalf  16:07

Hi, Jordan, how are you?

Jordan Schnitzer  16:08

I'm very well, thank you. I appreciate being asked to be on your podcast.

Miranda Metcalf  16:11

Oh, my gosh, thank you so much for agreeing to it. I often refer to you in passing as the "patron saint of the print world," so I feel like it's really great to get to meet face to face and talk about it.

Jordan Schnitzer  16:24

Probably the better term is the "pauper of print," because I'm giving all of these publishing houses and galleries money all the time.

Miranda Metcalf  16:30

Exactly, exactly! You're helping us out! We appreciate so much the work that you do. So I would be curious to know, when did printmaking first come into your world? I know your mother had a gallery, but did she show print? Was it sometime after that?

Jordan Schnitzer  16:46

It's an interesting question, because the normal question is that my mother ran a contemporary Northwest art gallery in Oregon for 25 years.

Miranda Metcalf  16:53

Mm-hmm, yeah!

Jordan Schnitzer  16:55

And then when she turned the gallery over to an assistant, I was on the board of the Portland Art Museum. I came up, and there was an exhibition of prints and multiples from what I'll call the New York school. I won't give names. I thought, you know, I want to stay committed to buying art of our region. Because I think art of the Pacific Northwest is as good as anything anywhere. And if I was from Dallas, Des Moines, Chicago, Buffalo, I'd say the same thing about those artists.

Miranda Metcalf  17:19

Of course, yeah!

Jordan Schnitzer  17:20

I went to a gallery that specialized in works on paper. I bought a small Frank Stella...

Miranda Metcalf  17:25

Lovely!

Jordan Schnitzer  17:25

...I bought a small David Hockney from the "Blue Guitar" series, and a Jim Dine, a heart, a skull, and cross called "Garrity Necklace." But it's interesting, in remembering back later, when my mother was opening the first gallery, it was 115 Southwest 4th. It was south of 2nd, it was a small $50 a month space. And [we] were helping her sheetrock the walls and paint. And I remember, as a seven year old, going over and looking at this odd chest, and there were these little tiny drawers. I thought, 'That's strange. That's too small to hold sweaters or clothes.' And I pulled it open. And I'm looking at this beautiful print. My mother comes over my shoulders, and says, 'Do you like that?' And I said, 'I do.' And she said, 'Well, you can have it.' Now, later, I realized it was by Stanley Hayter.

Miranda Metcalf  18:16

Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah!

Jordan Schnitzer  18:18

A British printmaker. And so actually, I guess the first thing I ever really got was a print.

Miranda Metcalf  18:26

That's beautiful! That's beautiful. And so from that point, I mean, at any point, were you like, 'This is it.' Like, 'Print's gonna be my thing.' Or were you just collecting, and then one day realized you have the largest private print collection in the US?

Jordan Schnitzer  18:44

Well, I love all mediums. And we have thousands of paintings and sculptures, as well as thousands and thousands of prints. But when I bought those first prints, and a few more, and a few more, it was a fun sort of break away from the artists of the Pacific Northwest that I'd grown up with and was still committed to. And as I bought those prints, it was so much fun. And then the first exhibition was at the University of Oregon art museum, now called the Jordan Schnitzer Museum of Art. That was really the transformational moment. First to see the art, much of which had already been in storage, but to see audiences enjoying it, especially the fathers and mothers with kids. So I thought to myself, 'Wouldn't it be nice to have a mission to the madness, and create a significant private collection of prints and multiples?' First, because I love the collaboration of works on paper. Second, because it was reasonably affordable to buy work so that we could really serve the public with a teaching collection.

Miranda Metcalf  19:45

Yeah, absolutely.

Jordan Schnitzer  19:46

Little did I know that the passion would become an obsession. And I've been so honored. We've had 160 exhibitions in 120 museums. We truly, in the art program, live to serve the museum directors and curators, and in essence, the public. For me, the collection is all about the art and the audience. While I am fortunate and blessed to live with a lot of art in my house or houses, the bulk of the collection is there to, as a steward and facilitator, get these amazing creative geniuses' ideas to audiences around the country. Often less served audiences. University of Wyoming; Springfield, Missouri; UMass Amherst. I mean, while we've had shows at the big museums - Detroit and Atlanta, the High Museum and others - I especially find joy getting art to audiences that maybe can't get on that plane and come to New York or Los Angeles or Chicago.

Miranda Metcalf  19:46

Absolutely. No, I think that's really significant, and I love that you speak to the power of print in that way. Before I was in Santa Fe, I was actually working at a gallery in Bangkok. And people would get to see these masterworks from the West through the prints! I mean, a Picasso painting wasn't coming through Bangkok, but the prints would. And it just was -seeing people light up, to be able to see it - was so special. Yeah, absolutely. I'm hoping you can speak to, a little bit, the kind of role as someone who's in the institutional side of the museum. Like, archive creating. I used to work at Davidson Galleries in Seattle, and the first time I became aware of the Jordan Schnitzer museums, I got a phone call from someone in the acquisitions department who was buying a set of Tomiyuki Sakuta's 500 faces. They were tiny etchings he'd done, 500 faces of his friends. And it was in this beautiful box. And I remember thinking, before I got that call, 'What private collector would buy this?' It's not something you display, it's something that would take up space. And it was so special to be introduced to you and the work that you do through that, because it was a beautiful series, and understanding that it was going to have a home somewhere and going to be protected, this undertaking of printmaking. So I love that, and is that something that you thought about when you started?

Jordan Schnitzer  22:10

Well, like many things that happen to us in life, there's a serendipity that just evolves. So I never had an idea I'd become such a major factor in the print world, and sort of a Johnny Appleseed of promoting works on paper. It's interesting, I so often feel that prints and multiples are looked at as second-class citizens by many of the museum directors and curators, and that's just so wrong. With all the artists that I've met, they love the works on paper and prints as much, or often more, than their paintings, sculptures, or digital art, or other things they do. So I hope by helping get these exhibitions around the country - and I find them through university art museums - we can begin to help change and help, in Warhol's words, the 'democratization' of art. Prints and multiples, especially by newer artists, are so much more affordable than the paintings of very big established artists. And too often in the art world, there are so many people out there - the majority, I would say, unfortunately - that think that art is for some elitist few and not for them.

Miranda Metcalf  23:18

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's one of the most beautiful things about printmaking, is as you speak to, through the power of the multiple, people can experience things. And they can experience things in different contexts. You know, I've spoken to artists who got inspired doing what they do because they saw Durer's Triumph [Triumphal Arch] at the Vatican, and then they saw it at the St. Louis Museum. And they realized that this is a way to actually let things move on and have a life that can live in many different places. So what do you look for when you're kind of saying, 'Okay, this is what I'm putting in the canon. This is what I'm putting in my museums.'?

Jordan Schnitzer  23:58

Two things. And I think if there's anything that your audience hears from me, that they remember, is [these] two things. First, artists have always been chroniclers of our time, since time immemorial. Whether it's the caves in France with those horses, whether it's the Aztec, whether it's Egyptian, whether it's Medieval, it doesn't matter what period. Their job is either, one, create something lovely that we look at that takes our breath away, and that doesn't necessarily have meaning, but has feeling. The other work they do as artists is they grab us and shake us up and make us focus on themes of society and the world at that time. So I like both [of those] kinds of work. A lot of color field work that just is scrumptious. The way these gifted people think about this. I know you and I both took art in grade school and high school, and everyone listening this podcast took art. You're all artists! And I'm sure most of you, like I have, when we're at a restaurant and there's paper in front of us - butcher paper and crayons - we suddenly are scribbling on all that. But the kind of artists that are at this IFPDA show, and in the museums in New York and around the country, they're quite different than all of us. First, I think they genetically had a predisposition to an aesthetic that many of us just didn't happen to have. We may all have our own unique gifts that are a little bit different. Second, they had a burning passion inside them to get a message out, that they were willing to rip open their guts, and whether it's a painting, sculpture, print, to basically show the world and be subject to all the criticism and the taunts and 'This is horrible,' whatever, that you get as an artist. And lastly, they had to be at the right place at the right time to get that break. And then they had to create art that was different. If we saw work at this IFPDA show that looked like Van Gogh, we'd say, well, I guess if someone wants to show someone that's knocking off a Van Gogh, I guess that could be interesting... but we've already had a Van Gogh. So you've got to do something in a different way. And as you walk through the aisles here and go to these booths, you see one artist after another that has their own brand, their own style, their own message. And that's what's wonderful about the art world.

Miranda Metcalf  26:21

Yeah, absolutely. And so, for you, when you're kind of thinking about what goes in the canon - I mean, it sounds like it's a combination of all those things. So it's someone who's got that voice, they're saying something about the time, they're in the right place at the right time. And it just needs to be archived, right? As part of it. Yeah.

Jordan Schnitzer  26:41

It's interesting, if I've been asked once, it's been a thousand times - someone will say, 'Oh, this contemporary art! Why can't they just do nice scenes of beaches and bowls of fruit?' And I'll say, well, first of all - once in a while, an artist just never went to art school and just had that creative talent - but most all these folks went to art school.

Miranda Metcalf  27:01

Yeah, they know what they're doing.

Jordan Schnitzer  27:02

Pratt, RISD, Yale, wherever they went. You know, a junior college in LA. Okay? So they painted lots of bowls of fruit, and lots of beach scenes, and lots of portraits. But as I said, to merely do what's been done wouldn't get them on these walls. The second thing I have said to people is, you know, it's interesting: unless you're really a top musician, when most of us hear some new music we like, we don't sit there saying, 'Well, what was the beat? What was the timing? What was the instrument?' Or whatever. We just get into it and start grooving with the music. I love eating. We go to a restaurant, we're tasting something. Oh, it's just delicious. Again, unless you're a Julia Child protege, or whatever, [you don't] think about, well, what temperature, and how they cook it, and what they mix in, whatever. And yet, somehow with art, with visual things, when people see it - unless they instantly can figure it out - they get frustrated. They don't with music or food!

Miranda Metcalf  27:59

Yeah, that's true.

Jordan Schnitzer  28:00

So it's interesting. So what I tell people so often in your audience is, stop -  when you're looking at art - stop thinking, and just start feeling. Just let yourself experience the art. And let the artist's voice speak to you. Whether it's as a colorist, whether it's a theme, whether it's every issue facing society. And if you give yourself the chance to let the art work you, I guarantee you, you'll feel that excitement inside. Not about all the artists. But about certain ones that speak to you. You know, think about this also... do you have siblings?

Miranda Metcalf  28:46

I do, an older brother.

Jordan Schnitzer  28:48

You grew up alike?

Miranda Metcalf  28:49

Yeah, uh-huh!

Jordan Schnitzer  28:51

Vacation together, dinners together, grandparents, parents, whatever.

Miranda Metcalf  28:55

Yep, yep, totally. Every night.

Jordan Schnitzer  28:56

Even if you'd have been a twin and you were dressed completely alike, each of you, when you come see a piece of art - no matter how close you are as a family - you are preloaded with a million little mosaic parts of your life. That's why each of us, when we experience art, have our own reaction to it. Because we're all unique as human beings. Now the second point of that same theme is, today - and you're a bit younger than I am, okay, so you've grown up with a smartphone - today, especially young people, that smartphone is superglued to their hand, right? They're being told with Instagram, Twitter, Spotify music, everything, where to go, what to think, who's doing what all the time. They're being barraged with more information than ever in the history of the world. There's a lot that's good about that. But art, I would suggest, and nature, is the last bastion where they can go - anyone, whether you're 6, 18, 68 - and no one can tell you that what you're experiencing in the art is not right.

Miranda Metcalf  29:09

Right.

Jordan Schnitzer  29:24

And that, I think, is a critical thing, especially for younger people. Where can they go where they can not be judged - either internally, or by what's expected of them based upon all the stuff coming through their smartphone - and they can just let themselves be. And let their minds wander. The other thing, too, is, I think art - aside from making you feel good - I think gives you hope. And all of us need hope in our lives to solve the problems today, and hope for a better future tomorrow.

Miranda Metcalf  30:42

That's really beautiful, Jordan. I definitely agree. I think that there's something transcendent about that personal moment that happens between the viewer and the art object that you're speaking to, that's just you. Like, it's just happening inside a person standing in front of a work of art, and connecting to it, and being taken out of the scenarios and the worries that they have, and just having that aesthetic experience. It's beautiful.

Jordan Schnitzer  31:10

Totally agree. And the other thing, too, I would suggest to your audience, and I'm sure many people listening to you listen to you a lot, and are art lovers already. But you know, galleries and art fairs are wonderful places. Because you can go and ask any question. Doesn't cost you a nickel.  You can say at a gallery, or you can say at a booth here at the print fair, 'Well, tell me about this artist. Why did you pick this artist to be in your booth? What's going on there?' And it's free! Free education! And there's no question that is not a dignified and important question. There's no stupid questions.

Miranda Metcalf  31:26

It's true!  I totally agree. I worked in galleries for a long time. As I mentioned, I was at Davidson. And when people would come up and they'd sort of couch their question, 'I know this is gonna sound stupid, but...' I would always be like, 'No, no, no! Just don't even - don't even go there!' Because sometimes the questions that come from people who are not in the art world are the most profound and the most interesting! Because I came up in the art world, my thinking is already following these pre-built circuits, but sometimes someone from engineering or plumbing comes in, and they ask me something, and I'll have to say, 'No one has ever asked me that question before!' It's a beautiful thing. And it really creates connections. Absolutely.

Jordan Schnitzer  32:23

Totally agree. I love when someone says, 'Hey, I'm seeing this,' and I say, 'Wow! I've looked at this print, painting, whatever it may be, a million times. I've never thought that! That's brilliant. I can't wait to now look at it again, with your point of view on it.'

Miranda Metcalf  32:35

Yeah, it's very, very fun. Well, I don't know if... if this is asking a question that's difficult to answer, but in your extensive print collection, do you have a favorite?

Jordan Schnitzer  32:50

It's like I have 20,000 children and I love them all.

Miranda Metcalf  32:53

I was gonna say, yeah.

Jordan Schnitzer  32:54

But Kathan Brown, the founder of Crown Point Press in San Francisco, who's one of my heroes... I should say that one of the reasons I love works on paper is that collaboration between the artist and the publishing houses, that started with Tamarind in the '60s, and created master printers that have gone out throughout the country. And now there's such a robust printing profession, with a number of fabulous... Pace, and Robert Lococo, and Tamarind, and Marlboro, and Two Palms Press, and on and on and on. And I love that collaboration between these technologically brilliant artistic printers and the artists that can do things on paper that never could have been done in the past. They wouldn't have had the patience, the time, or the technological knowledge to help put mylar on paper, or sparkles, or all the things they do. So that's one reason why I love works on paper. In terms of the favorite, when my daughters were seven and nine, we were in San Francisco, and I said, 'We're going to go to Fisherman's Wharf and do some fun kid things after we make one stop.' And they said, 'Not another museum, daddy!' And I said, 'Well, this will be short.' We went down to Crown Point Press. And I was looking with Valerie Wade, the museum director, and I said, 'Is Kathan here?' And she said, 'Yes.' And I poked my head around to Kathan Brown, who founded Crown Point Press in '62, '63. And I put her on a pedestal. All the work she's done with Wayne Thiebaud, Diebenkorn, all these people. And I said, 'Would you mind taking my daughters to the back where your presses are?' She did. And then, surprisingly to me, she put a white smock on, and grandmother that she already was, sits my girls down, goes and gets these copper plates and these little etching tools, and tells them to start making drawings! And in the meantime, I'm bouncing around, going crazy, saying, 'Oh my god! Oh my god! Do my girls know who is teaching them art?' As if they cared.

Miranda Metcalf  34:47

That's a very sweet answer. I love that. Of course they are! Of course they are. Well, is there anything on the horizon? Any projects you have that you're particularly excited about? Right!

Jordan Schnitzer  34:47

Long and short is, she went over to the press that she started Crown Point with, and she whispered to me, 'Jordan, I haven't actually done this myself for 25 years.' But she still knew how. So she did two little prints. She printed two prints of my daughter's work. And I'll finish the story, I came back a couple of weeks later, and I said, 'Oh, Kathan, that was so wonderful for you to do this. Would you mind signing the prints?' Did she get mad at me! She said, 'Jordan, I'm ashamed of you! I'm not the artist! You have your daughters sign it!' And I was properly scolded. But I have those framed, and I guess I would say, like any parent who has art of their children, those are my most important works. Sure. Well, as you may know, I've had 160 exhibitions at 120 museums. I'm fortunate, I work hard in my day job running a real estate company, so we do all those shows at no cost. Then we generally say, tell me, museum, about your outreach programs. I remember in Missoula, we had a wonderful show there, and I said, 'Tell me about your outreach.' And Laura Millin, the director, said, 'We have the best program with grade school students!' I said, 'What is it?' She said, 'We bring all the fifth graders in.' I said, 'How many students is that?' She said, 'About 500.' I said, 'That's fabulous. But what do you do about the first, second, third, and fourth, and the sixth, seventh and eighth grades?' She says, 'Well, we don't have enough funds.' I said, 'You talk to your educators. You figure out how many students you can handle, and we'll write the checks for all the buses you need.' Then I said, 'Who else is around?' We like working with senior centers, native communities, whatever. She said, 'Well, we have two native tribes, the Kootenai and the Salish.' I said, 'I don't know them -' I work with a dozen other native tribes - and we brought 500 kids in from the native schools. And we actually had two Northwest Native artists, along with Kara Walker, Oldenburg, Lichtenstein, Rauschenberg, Jasper Johns, all those people, and Rick Bartow and Joe Feddersen. I asked if she knew those artists, she said Rick Bartow, she did. So I sent over some more work by both of those artists. So for me, the joy I got knowing, for those 500 Native American kids that had never seen a Warhol, a Lichtenstein, a Jasper Johns, a Red Grooms, a Frankenthaler, a Chuck Close, that they also saw that work right next to Rick Bartow and Joe Feddersen.

Miranda Metcalf  35:14

Yeah.

Jordan Schnitzer  35:15

Now, I guess, to sum up that, it's that we all have hopes and dreams. As to how that exhibition might have influenced the 9,000 or 10,000 people that saw the show, but especially those 500 Native American kids, I don't know. But I can only hope in my heart [that] maybe some of them are touched, either to think about being an artist, or most importantly, to think about the possibilities of dreaming about whatever they want to be.

Miranda Metcalf  37:43

Yeah, yeah.

Jordan Schnitzer  37:44

So we've done more exhibitions of artists of color, more exhibitions of women artists - both of which are traveling around the country right now - but one thing I am thinking about is, while I have funded three University art museums and working on two more, why University art museums? It's the last time you have sort of younger people in a contained environment.  And too many people, as I said earlier, think that those museums are for someone else, again, some elitist few. So when they're on campus, if we can sort of just have them get in that museum once or twice and realize it didn't bite, didn't hurt them, and it might have been a little interesting, then maybe they'll go back to their communities across the country and go to those buildings where there's neat stuff. Now for me, I've always thought, and having my own museum, that private museums were a bunch of rich folks that sat there and said, 'Hey, I've got a bunch of art. Look at me.' My program has never been about me. If anything, it's 'Look at what I'm doing with the art.' So focus on the art and the audience. At the same time... while I'm honored to have had all the shows by artists of color and women... I think it's a shame that it took so long for the art world and society to recognize the importance culturally, politically, socially, artistically, of diverse audiences. Of artists of color and different faiths and whatever. At the same time, I get worried that especially younger artists aren't seeing Frank Stella, or Ed Ruscha, or David Hockney, or Helen Frankenthaler, or Agnes Martin, or Robert Ryman, or whoever. So it may be we ended up opening our own museum, which, I'm looking at a couple sites, so we can put those other shows on too. It's not that one is better than the other. Both are necessary. And it's also important for audiences today, when we see the current artists - I mean, Leonardo Drew. I was at his studio yesterday. God, I love everything he does. Hank Willis Thomas, I'm interviewing tomorrow. Oh, his messages just grab me and shake me, and what a bright, wonderful human being. Allison Saar's traveling around the country, a Black lady from LA with her mother Betty, who really burst through a lot of ceilings. Oh, we've got Marie Watt, a Native American, I'm glad she's getting so much publicity. We've collected her work for so long. We could go on and on and on. Vanessa German. Others, lots of them.

Miranda Metcalf  38:05

Yeah, that's true.  You did a wonderful Hung Liu show recently.

Jordan Schnitzer  40:13

Hung Liu! Oh, her death was so tragic, so important. And she's in "Global Asia," 18 Asian artists, that's traveling around the country. But at the same time, audiences need to see those who came before these audiences. Because artists, like any trade, you build upon the legacy of those who came before you. Whether it's science, doctors, medicine, educators, whatever. So that may be in the future, that we look at building our own museum that would be operated for free and funded in perpetuity, just to have a little bit more balance. And the fact that we're fortunate we have so much work... I feel a great sense of responsibility to get more of that out so that the artist knows their work is doing what it's supposed to do.

Miranda Metcalf  41:03

That's beautiful.

Jordan Schnitzer  41:04

Speak to audiences.

Miranda Metcalf  41:05

Absolutely. Jordan, it has been so lovely to chat with you. I really connected with what you're saying and the work that you're doing. And just, thank you so much for what you do for the print world, and the art world, and... the world. Yeah.

Jordan Schnitzer  41:19

Thank you. And again, to your audience, come to this Print Fair. Go to a gallery. Oh, the last point I'd like to make -

Miranda Metcalf  41:25

Yeah, please!

Jordan Schnitzer  41:26

- Is for you parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles. When you have that Saturday afternoon with your grandkids, or it's Friday afternoon with your own kids, whatever, and you're trying to think of what to do with them: take them to an art museum! Take them to a gallery! Even just for 15 minutes. And let me finish with this. All of us who are parents wish we had a wand to wave [so] that our children wouldn't have to go through all the life issues that we've all faced in various ways and will continue to face. And we can't stop them from having issues in their life. Boyfriends, girlfriends, illness, sickness, death, loss, jobs, all those issues. And if we're lucky enough to have a little money, you create some trust funds, fine, whatever. But in the end, what we're all trying to do as parents is have our children have good values. If you get them exposed to art, especially at a young age, just maybe when they're facing those crises in their life, and they need that break to get away - in essence, from themselves, for a few minutes - that they go to a museum, go to a gallery, go to an art show. Maybe they'll be inspired, and in some conscious or unconscious way, be able to go back to face their issues with a clear mindset. And help themselves feel better about themselves, the world around them, and whatever issue they are facing.

Miranda Metcalf  42:59

Absolutely.

Jordan Schnitzer  42:59

So hat's a plea to everyone to say, if you really care about your kids, and you want to help them have good values, help them have a passion for the arts.

Miranda Metcalf  43:09

That's beautiful. Thank you so much, Jordan. Totally lovely. If you like today's episode, we have a Patreon where you can help us keep the lights on and get bonus content, like Shoptalk Shorts, where our editor Timothy Pauszek digs deep on materials, processes, and techniques with past guests. And if monetary support isn't in the cards right now, you can leave a review for us on your podcast listening app of choice or buy something from one of our great sponsors and tell them Hello, Print Friend sent you. But as always, the very best thing you can do to support this podcast is by listening and sharing with your fellow print friends around the world. And that's our show for this week. Join me again next week when my guest will be Brianna Tosswill. We talk about the power and importance of comfort and how this is distinct from distraction, Brianna's hand-pulled cart that she takes to fairs where she sells her prints, capital R- and lowercase r- "romance," and finding hope in this troubled world. You won't want to miss it. This episode, like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing by Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Webber. I'll see you next week.