Episode 169 | John Coe

Published December 7, 2022

Transcript

Miranda Metcalf  00:00

Hi, John, how's it going?

John Coe  00:01

I'm good. Thanks, Miranda. How are you?

Miranda Metcalf  00:03

I'm really good. I feel like our meeting feels like a long time coming to me, because it's not just - I haven't just known your work and what you do, and consumed it and been a fan of it, but we've actually collaborated a little bit. I've written for Pressing Matters, I wrote a piece years ago on Elizabeth Jean Younce, and working on a piece right now that'll come out in the last issue of 2022. And so it's really nice to have worked together, and then to actually be able to see you semi-in person and have a chat!

John Coe  00:35

Absolutely. I wrote down, rather than remembered, that we featured you in May 2017, which is relatively early -

Miranda Metcalf  00:44

Oh, my gosh! That's so long ago!

John Coe  00:45

Wait, no. That's wrong. That's wrong. That was the first issue came out in May 2017. We featured you in issue six, which is quite a special issue. So it had lots of people, like John Pedder in it, I think, Stanley Donwood in that issue as well. Loads of people in issue six, such a good issue.

Miranda Metcalf  00:51

Very cool!

John Coe  01:05

Yeah, no, it's been great. Sort of connecting with a lot of people this year as well. Just doing three issues, this year, I've had a bit more chance to actually meet some people in person, go to some print fairs, things like that.

Miranda Metcalf  01:20

Very fun. Well, before we get into the interview, would you introduce yourself and just let people know who you are, where you are, what you do? Oh, beautiful. It's a cycling magazine.

John Coe  01:31

Sure, sure. So I'm John Coe. I'm Creative Director and Founder of Pressing Matters Magazine. I set it up, as I just said, six years ago, I think, to do a magazine about printmaking. At the time, I felt there wasn't something that was speaking to me about print, and that's where it came from. So I did a year in print, which was a part time course, you know, a morning a week for a year. And it was in all kinds of print formats. So you did three or four weeks in different print mediums. So you'd do relief print, then you'd do screenprint, etc. And whilst I was doing that, I met Jo Hounsome, who is sort of, you could call her our House Photographer. She doesn't do all of it. But she's local to Bristol. She was the tutor of that course, and I did that classic thing of talking about it so much, I was winding me and her up about it. Like, 'Oh, let's get this magazine started,' right? It just felt I knew a lot of people with interesting stories, just in our local area, let alone anywhere else. And prior to that magazine, I'd done another magazine called Bone Shaker, which - I'll show you on screen, but not anyone else will be able to see it. It was sort of similar. Yeah, it was about cycling, smaller format. And it was a group of us who did that, and had some experience working at a magazine company in Germany on an indie labels magazine. So I had all this experience, I wasn't going to do anything. And I'm self taught in graphic design over the years, in different jobs, etc. As a freelancer as well. But one thing I knew I was pretty engaged with, I guess, or interested in, was magazines. I bought loads of magazines, massive magazine fan, let alone what it was about... and you know, at the time, I was quite a cyclist. A lot of my friends were into cycling as well. So yeah, a group of us came together and did that magazine. And I wasn't going to do another magazine, but when I decided to do the printmaking course, it just... I sort of was like, well, the artwork is... the people's print artwork is the illustration. So, for example, with the bike magazine, we'd have to commission illustrations for a story. Whereas, with a print magazine, it's the people's artwork. And most people I was speaking to had friends who were photographers, or someone who wanted to write something. So literally, the second I mentioned it locally, people were like, 'I'll do something! I want to see it!' I did a little PDF, and had a few sort of, 'What do you reckon of this idea?', with a few people. But past that, I was pretty convinced - because I've done other magazines - that I would just go for it. Do issue one, you know, put my own money behind it, just get it done. Get it over the line. It might be the same with the podcast, or other projects you've done. But I think sometimes, when you put your own self, your ideas, and your money behind something and go, like, 'Meet me halfway,' it sometimes can come across better than crowdfunding things, or from the start, having a different relationship. So it came out fairly fully formed, and seems like a long time ago now, six years. And I've got a lot of un-designed files between now and then.

Miranda Metcalf  04:55

Yeah, I feel like when I first saw Pressing Matters in 2017 - I was thinking about it, and I can't even remember how I was introduced to it - but I saw it, and that idea of it being fully formed, that really speaks to me of my experience. So getting this magazine, and it just feeling like it just filled this niche that was out there in the print community, and the way in which the global print community has a shared narrative and communicates with one another - because as we spoke to a little bit off air, there are other publications about printmaking. But a lot of them are quite academic. And that's a whole 'nother side of the print world, which is important and doing its own good work. But something that just seems like a lush, visually driven celebration with stories that don't need 30 footnotes - like, this can just be a good story about printmaking, without that sort of justification of, making sure we're referencing all these people. And so I instantly connected with it. And I came across it about the same time I was thinking about starting the podcast, and I felt like it had a similar energy to it. And so that was really cool to see, this idea that printmaking stories are interesting in and of themselves. And there'll be people who want to respond to them. And if we create something that is accessible, people will come. If you build it, they will come.

John Coe  06:30

Yeah. The thing we always said with Bone Shaker's magazines, if there was any sort of fake tagline, it was like a "sideways look at cycling." It was not about the lycra and the kit. It was about human stories, the endeavor. And again, we talked a little bit off air about, I think printmaking's all about artistic endeavor. And the sort of journey people go on from that first sketch to, oh, how would this look in linocut? Or what's the best way to print this? Or what have you. I think within the pages of the magazine, I realized very quickly - even the first couple of issues, and I guess through the community online - we're interested because it's other people. But there's also a universality in other people's stories that we can connect to. So when I started, I was trying to push slightly... not against, but being in a different space to those academic journals. So it was like, the ones we have in the UK are often like, you know, the photos are almost postage stamp sized. They're very small, and it's all words. And I think we still have plenty of words in ours, but I was massively trying to just go, 'That print's amazing!' Especially if you see these things in real life, they're quite big. And if it's on a glossy paper or something like that... so I guess coming from a graphic design point of view, from like, 'What do I want to see?' It's kind of selfish from the start point. It's just like, well, let's just make... you said the word "lush," but let's just make this speak of its own qualities, if you see what I mean. So, I mean, I get millions of photos from most photoshoots. And I have to just go work through them. But usually the work is easier to choose, because I can go, 'Well, that one really stands up as a whole page. And this doesn't.' And so yeah, I think what I'm always mindful of is just, I have my own sort of thoughts and feelings when we interview people, when we write, when I design it. But I think it's very... it's quite likely, from the conversations I've had with people, that you can be a stone litho artist, but still be really interested in screenprinting or this other approach. Or people's practices - I've noticed it's massive in Bristol, actually - a lot of people's practices cross over. And they'll actually be a person who looks at trees, you know. Like Gemma looks at old buildings and things, Gemma Gunning.

Miranda Metcalf  09:03

Yeah, yeah.

John Coe  09:04

And she is predominantly litho, but she will work in other methods. So even her drawings are amazing. And so you've got, I think the actual techniques can be a bit amorphous, and I am very much 'Have I covered everyone in some kind of way?' Because I want it to be fair, and for someone, whatever they're looking at, to get something from it. But you'd be surprised, at print fairs, often people are going, 'Which one's your screenprinting issue?' I'm like, 'Just pick them up. Look at them. See what work you like.' Because it could be a screenprinting article, but they don't like that particular type of artwork. So it's... I think for some people, it's possibly a bit all over the shop, but we do work quite hard to make it quite an open thing.

Miranda Metcalf  09:50

Yeah. Well, I think that's part of the reason why I really connect with it, is that it does cover the breadth of this community that is at the same time very large and very small. And so you get that, you know, you'll get an article about Black Women of Print, and then you'll turn the page, and it'll be a profile on this Brazilian woodcut artist in his 90s, and then you'll turn the page and it'll be a stamp collection. It's really fun that way. And so, at the beginning, it sounds like when you were looking at making content, it was resourcing the people in your network. But of course, it's grown now. You say you're coming up on 20 issues. What does it look like now, when you're putting a magazine together? Are you getting pitches from people around the world? Are you soliciting? Are you researching and writing yourself? Now that you've been doing this for six years, how does it look for you to create an issue?

John Coe  10:55

Well, the last two or three issues have been maybe slightly different to the ones before, because I had some treatment for my health earlier in the year. And so it's not getting them out by hook or by crook. But we have always got plenty of content, we've always got plenty of people we're speaking to, and sometimes stories can overlap. So we start one, but it doesn't manage to finish in time for a print deadline. Or when someone's on a residency and they won't have time to do part of it, and it'd be a better story later. So I think the more recent ones building up to issue 20 almost have their own momentum. Like, there's been people wanting to feature, it all felt well for us. But the only one thing I would say, in my own personal opinion, is sometimes the magazine can be quite profile-heavy. So even though we'll do different profiles, it can be different sort of artists. It can be sort of like, here's someone else in the studio, here's someone... One thing I am doing, looking at issue 20, is looking back to the earlier issues or things we've done along the way. So some of the "My Tools" articles, more feature-led pieces where it's "The Story Behind the Print" and "From Sketchbook to Print." There's a couple of new ones. We're doing "A City in Print," so Gemma Gunning talked about how she's doing a piece about Bristol, and how it inspires her. And I'd love her to do that one, and then someone go, 'Oh, yeah, I'm based in Mexico City...' You know, there's loads there. So I think as we keep going, we're trying to strengthen up the kind of things we're good at, but also look back a little bit and go, 'Well, that worked. And that was really enjoyable.' Like, the longer you go, the more we want to get many voices. So working with yourself on some articles, you've worked over in Thailand, you know the guys over there. The article is brilliant because of that. And so there's quite a few in 20. I think - again, I want everyone else to be the judge of it when it comes out - but 20 has been different, because we've got... so Jake Garfield, a woodcut artist, has interviewed Tom Hammick, who's also a woodcut artist and painter. Their conversation is really interesting, because it's exactly that. And they touch on sort of nuances that I wouldn't necessarily get to, because I'm busy making a magazine. So I think, if I was to summarize all of that rambling, it's trying to learn from all the good stuff over the years, but also trying to incorporate as much of the community that's saying, 'Hey, I'm here, I've got a story!' And actually reaching out to them, saying, yeah, well... I wouldn't call it a pitch, you get different - like with yourself, you've come to us and said, 'Well, there's several things going on [that] I'm interested in, but actually, this is something I could see in the pages of the magazine.' And that's quite different from an artist emailing us saying, 'Here's my artwork, can you feature it?' So we get both, and I quite like that. But I think certainly in each issue, I'm mindful that we get sent a lot - for example, we get sent a lot more relief work...

Miranda Metcalf  14:14

Of course, yeah. I can see that.

John Coe  14:16

...Than we would intaglio, or even riso. So other things that I think it's quite key to keep in there, because they are part of this world. So for example, this issue is, I would say, half lots of people's voices and different approaches, and then half profiles. But even within the profiles, the actual artists are quite varied again. I mean, for me, it's... and I'm also playing with other things. You know, I may end up with another photographic cover, but I am playing around with an illustrated cover this time. So I want to, obviously, the longer I go on - I'm sure it's the same in podcasts, or any projects that anyone does over a longer period of time - it's not about staying interested. It's just kind of keeping that joy you have for it fresh with new people, with more collaborations, with more connections.

Miranda Metcalf  15:11

Totally. And for me with the podcast, part of it, too, is about keeping myself challenged in some way. Because you don't ever want to - or at least, I don't ever want to - get to the point where I'm like, 'I have this down. I know how this works.' I do this interview, then it looks like this, then it looks like this, and that's the finished product. And that sort of "stay hungry" mentality disappears a bit. And so you need to - especially when, like you said, it's multi-year, like the podcast was 2018, Pressing Matters was 2017. So they're sort of reaching a similar age. And where it could start to feel comfortable, but you need to not let it feel comfortable. That's how I feel, anyway. Yeah.

John Coe  15:54

I keep mistakingly saying '20 years' instead of '20 issues.' Which is like, is that saying something about it? No.

Miranda Metcalf  16:01

It's felt so long! Yeah.

John Coe  16:04

I mean, It's really exciting. You know, it's really exciting that it was fairly popular from the start, you know, we reprinted issue one. We did 1000, we had to print another 1000 quite quickly. So going back to what you were saying, the small and big thing, I sort of jokingly call it a "global niche." But I think that is what it is. A lot of people... are sort of going, 'You can make a living off of this?' And I'm like, 'Yeah, kinda!' Yeah, yeah, but it's because I'm not trying to do millions of things. And we haven't got millions of employees. It's a very small scale business. I work with my wife on the more logistics side of things, I work with a writer, some regular photographers, but it's me, mainly. I can't say there are these huge sides of the business. It is me. And so the way it looks, I suppose, for this issue, is - and certainly I work quite closely with Vinca on when we choose what's in it, and how we approach things - Vinca Power is our brilliant writer - and again, I think we're both interested in journalism and magazines and storytelling endof, you know? The design is really important, I am a designer, but there's a side to just telling people's stories. And she's brilliant at bringing through those red threads, and sort of tying it all together. And yeah, sometimes it's sort of given to us, you know, we do a Q&A, we're given all the high-res artwork that we need, and it's all just packaged lovely. And then other times, you know, you work harder for them. But sometimes that's down to us, because we think it can be better... And I have, over the years, I think at the start, I was quite like, 'Oh, I'll just try and fit everyone in at some point.' But now I'll challenge people and say, 'Well, look, if you're doing this show later in the year, why don't we talk to you after you've had that?' Because you'll have grown as an artist, or, you know, maybe put you in as a smaller piece or an ad now, but then revisit it. And I think with that longevity comes the opportunity to just say... you know, we are kind of backed up on content often. I'm sure you've got a list. I think I saw on Instagram today all the people you're only talking to this week or something?

Miranda Metcalf  18:14

Yeah!

John Coe  18:15

Yeah, sounds like my world. Sort of managing all those things, and keeping it on a day-to-day basis, is quite enjoyable. And I think for me this year, especially with all the health stuff happening, I just want to be actually connected with people more. It was quite nice during the - if there was any nice thing about the pandemic - actually, the Zooms were really good, because people were really like, 'Oh, I want to chat to someone!' Whereas a lot of it can be done by Q&As, or giving people some themes to write on. And so yeah, connection with actual people, that's important to me. And coming up, we've got quite a few print fairs in the UK, which is a nice opportunity, obviously, to sell a few mags, but also, as much as anything else, just sort of catch up with people.

Miranda Metcalf  19:05

Yeah, that would be wonderful. You know, I'm the lead on Print Santa Fe, which is going to have a print fair element to it. It'd be great if we could somehow - I mean, it'd be wonderful if you could come visit, although I do know that's quite the trip. But if we could even like, have a table that we could have a volunteer at, moving some of the magazines.

John Coe  19:26

When is it?

Miranda Metcalf  19:27

It's April 2023.

John Coe  19:31

Maybe! Maybe.

Miranda Metcalf  19:31

Maybe. I don't know. I'm just sort of thinking, because it's just -

John Coe  19:34

I absolutely can't commit to anything, but I do have an issue coming out in April, though. I mean, one thing I'm kind of mindful of is making more of the launches. Sometimes they just, sort of nothing happens, and sometimes something happens, and we've got - our next one comes out mid-October. We're doing a festival called Print In Action in Plymouth in November, but then we're also doing Woolwich Print Fair, and then Press + Play in Brighton in November. And they'll be sort of launch-ish, because they're around the time. But in January-February time, we're hoping to do a tabletop fair in Bristol, curated by us, alongside a lino print show created by Ben Dickson. And so it's nice to have sort of things a little arm's length away to be excited about, and to, like you say... it's all bringing it to life. Like, I can't do loads more than I do, because it's already a full time job. But I think the more you connect with people in the actual real world, you know, I've often met people who'll go, 'I quite like putting on events! I'll help!' You know, when you do it digitally or via your computer a lot of the time, those sort of personal connections aren't as strong. So I'm all about that next year. So yeah, you never know, you may find me around Print Santa Fe.

Miranda Metcalf  21:02

Well, we would love to host you! We'd love to host you. And the thing is that there's so many print events happening in the US, almost, it seems like, every week. Particularly in that springtime area. So you know, you could do Print Austin, SGCI, Print Santa Fe, I mean, you could make it this tour! So we'll see! I'm sure we'll talk.

John Coe  21:27

And also, we've got such a great relationship with a lot of companies. Particularly, in the US, Speedball - I know you guys do [too], with the podcast. And they've invited us out to some of their shows and things that they're at as well. So, yeah, I think that's it for me. The longer we go, the more I just want to personally strengthen these things - as much as I do enjoy the magazine - just actually connect with people and see how we can do more things. Like the fairs in the UK, we've already got inks from Speedball, and Awagami are sending us some stuff, and GF Smith, we're using their papers on our live printing, as well as our Awagami ones. So it's sort of like the tentacles are growing.

Miranda Metcalf  22:09

Totally! I'm curious about, like, the publishing industry in sort of a broad term, in the sense that it, of course, has massively changed with the internet. That there were, I think, at one point, countless niche interest, niche trade magazines. Like Chess Weekly, and Embroiderers Anonymous, or whatever it is, right? And a lot of that went away, of course, with the internet. When people started to be able to connect in this digital sphere. And so, when you go about taking on a publication - whether it's the cycling magazine, or, of course, the printmaking magazine now - what is it that you think makes it viable? Like, makes Pressing Matters something that people are like, 'Oh, this is something that I'm not getting from the internet.' This is something that makes it a viable publication, because it's adding something that the internet experience doesn't have.

John Coe  23:17

Yeah, I mean, one short answer would be that it's a physical object, and it's standing. So it's not moving in front of you, and you're not making that sort of swipe action that makes a lot of content just go by in a very sort of primal image-based way. And we probably need a bit of that sometimes, too. But I mean, I guess magazines - as much as sort of books or coffee table art books - they're slightly slow journalism, but they are... ones like ours that quarterly are particularly about the arts in some kind of way, they are a little bit of a stake in the ground for what's going on at the time. Now, I am very mindful that that's me and Vinca and a couple of other people's take on that. But quite a few thousand people buy the magazine, so it must be interesting to a few others. So yeah, there's that sort of feeling... because I suppose the way we've done it, the way we've looked at it, is that we will talk about some shows and some fairs and things like that, but we keep the dates out of it in the main articles. So we make it quite timely. So you can pick up an issue from two, three years ago, and it's still quite a valuable resource. I mean, when I started it, I didn't think of it as a teaching tool, but the amount of people who run little workshops - or even big workshops - and say, 'Oh, yeah, we get it in for our students, and they love it.' Because they can just pan through and go, 'Oh, yeah, it's a bit like that, the thing I'm trying to do.' So I think differently to, say, the cycling magazine, when we came out there weren't that many indie cycling magazines. By the time it was finishing up, Rapha, the bike company, and various other people had made their versions of it. And so it was quite saturated. And I dare say something will be equally as good looking as Pressing Matters at some point, and have things to say, and occupy that world too. But - I'm trying not to ramble with this answer - but I suppose the way I feel about it is that... financially, it's doable, because it's mainly me doing it, right? When we were doing the bike magazine, there were three, four, five people at a certain time, and we're all trying to get some kind of part time wage from it. And it just becomes slightly bloated. As far as - you know, it was great working with all those people - but it was quite hard to do. And I think with what I do, it's about getting this balance of how much value there is in the thing that, like you say, isn't on the internet. Just passing by, it's captured somehow. But then in three or four months time, a new one will come that isn't vastly different. There's a familiarity there, but there's some other artists, and there's a slightly different take on a technique or what have you. I will say, though - whether this was part of your question, I can't remember - but I will say, particularly Instagram and the internet has been very good. It still is good now, but particularly at the start, there was already a community. Now some people say, 'Oh, yeah, it brought together the community,' the magazine did, and the Instagram account. It's like, well, maybe it has, but I think it was there already. It was just like glue that the magazine... because we're sort of - and we were with the bike mag - fairly open-doored. Like, yeah, you could be in this. We've just got to have a conversation with you. Particularly with these Instagram-led print challenges and things like that. I want people to feel part of it. I think that is quite unique to our magazine. And a lot of magazines are full of ads. And a lot of magazines are financially driven. And I have worked at a couple of places like that, and I've bought magazines like that. And I think it all adds up to what I like and want to do. Coming back to what I was saying before, just tell people's creative stories and get other people fired up by them.

Miranda Metcalf  27:29

Yeah, and I love what you're saying about that accessibility, and that kind of open-door feeling. And I didn't realize, but that's definitely part of what I connect with, is that it's equally thrilling for me to pick up an issue - when the issues arrive in the mail, is essentially how it happens - and I open the mailbox, and I'm like, 'Oh, there it is!' And there's just that kind of thrill of getting something in the mail. And then, I think also the delayed gratification, which we don't have in any other aspect of our life anymore. But you have to wait for the issue to come. And then when it comes, it is this build up and this exciting moment. And I get equally excited learning about someone new as seeing a friend in it. Like, oh, there's Jacoub! There's Wuon-Gean! There's Latoya! Like, it's so exciting to see your friend, your print friend, in print! You know?

John Coe  28:23

Yeah. And I mean, don't forget that the invention of the Heidelberg press was massive for communication of media. You know, print has been really important to getting stories out there for very long time. And I think we get so many pictures of people with their cup of tea, when it comes down, and they're like, 'I'm carving some time!' And like, 'I'm on holiday, and it was the first thing I packed!' And you know, I feed off that excitement. And I do get that excitement when I'm making it as well. It's like - I think we talked about it off air beforehand - it's interesting for me, because I'm involved in all levels of production, then the promotion, etc. As soon as it's out, it's everyone else's, the mag. And I don't know if it's like that with a podcast, but it's everyone else's to have, to enjoy. And I pick up on, in person at print fairs, or some comments online, or what have you, when people are excited about it. But the schedule is such that you sort of... it's a weird one, where you're thinking about 21 when 20's only just come out. And all that kind of stuff, which is just how it is. Because you're making something with that schedule. And I kind of like that about it, but when I get the magazine back, I think it's quite different. Because I get many copies. I get them, and they smell. Everyone goes, 'Oh, they smell really amazing of ink,' and I'm like, 'Yeah, try having about 400. I'm getting high off of the fumes until they calm down!' But when I get them back, I'm just going, 'Is there an error? Is there anything wrong with it?

Miranda Metcalf  30:10

Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Coe  30:13

That's just like any project you would work on as a creative person. You're quite critical of it, you know? And there's something in most issues, and I could probably list them. But you also have to be a bit Zen about it and go, 'Well, it's pretty good though.' There's still a lot of good stuff in there. And, usually it's only tiny little typographic things, what have you. But we try our hardest to check everything over and over again, and make sure there's no printer errors. And, you know. But some people just don't do print, they just do PDF magazines and things like that. And I get a few, I get a really great one called Contemporary Collage Magazine. But the PDFs sit on my desktop until I've got tired. And then I'm on screens so much, I'm like, do I want to sit there and read this? Do I print it out?

Miranda Metcalf  31:07

Yeah, I can't connect with reading online like that. Maybe it's being an '80s baby, and just not growing up with digital reading at all. But there's something that feels - because we do it so rarely now, connecting with magazines in this way - or most people do anyway - there's something that feels like a little ritualistic treat about reading a magazine. Where you're like, 'I am not in front of a screen. I've set this time aside.' And you have your cup of tea or coffee. And you're sitting there and you're like, I'm gonna just have an experience that has this sort of special feeling. And then also, there's something about the set aside time, and the limited experience, where I'm experiencing Instagram several times a day, almost unconsciously. I'm like, oh, there's a moment of boredom in the grocery store, and now I'm consuming art. But yeah, with the magazine, it's this little - yeah, it's like a ritual. And it feels really good.

John Coe  32:18

I mean, I do the same thing. I recently spotted a new magazine - which I think was PDF, and it's become print - called Advanture, which is about camper vans. I've got a camper van. Maybe because we haven't been away in it too much this year, I'm like, 'Oh, I want to go away!' But the thing is, in that world, you can get really sucked into sort of conversion videos and how you could use solar better and like, quite geeky [stuff]. Or you get people who are just living the absolute dream life, very Instagram ready. And this magazine's actually - I did swaps, swapped a couple of my mags with his - and I did exactly that. I put the kettle on, sat down, I went, 'Right. No one bother me for a bit.' So I had that same kind of moment. And obviously, I don't necessarily have it with my own one, because I'm making sure it's all right and good. But with a lot of other magazines, I might. And I guess for me, as well, it's slightly homework based. It's like, more of reading other things and more like, 'Oh, I like what they did there.' They were sort of quite geeky and talked quite technically there, but they did it in a non-mission statement, boring way. In a kind of quite useful way. I mean, I think that's the other thing with the magazines that I particularly like. I recently got one called Craft Magazine, which I hadn't had before, but Huck Magazine's always been a big one for me, which is all street and skate culture. And the articles, for me, want to feel more like conversations, more like little snapshots and injection of inspiration. Because going back to Instagram, or any other thing that might take up your time, your time is limited. So you want, when someone is looking at something, for them to go... you know, we've spent time putting together the best bits for them, hopefully. Because we can't compete with their whole archive online, or - for example, we've got an article with Anita Klein in issue 20. And she's got a 40 year retrospective show at the Eames Fine Art Gallery in London. And we've worked with her a few times, on articles and various things. But Jo had such a lovely - the photographer - I couldn't make it to that interview, but she had such a lovely conversation with Anita and they connected in such a printmaking way. You know, it was so different. And we're doing the same here, hopefully. It's just conversational based stuff, and we do try hard to keep that tone in there. And I think - one last thing on this, actually, and I think I do it myself, when I read other magazines - in contrast to, let's say, the internet rather than just Instagram - is that I think you bring something of yourself to it more. Like when you're stopped, you've got a cup of tea, you're having a bit of a moment. Even if it's just - not even reading it, but just skipping the pages and going, 'Somebody put this together with love.' And it feels like - and that's why I've probably got a slight addiction to artist books of artists I like, as well as magazines, and I buy quite a lot of zines as well. I just love it when someone has spent a bit of time curating something. For me, it's always a bit like a mini gallery in some pages that I can keep.

Miranda Metcalf  33:14

Totally. Oh, I love that idea. I think that's really true. And I also think that there's something for me, and I think probably for a lot of people, about the actual experience of buying something. Of, I've spent money on this. Instagram is just free nonsense forever and ever and ever, you know, you could just consume images, I'm sure, every moment of your life and die not seeing everything that's out there. And it's all free. And then, you know, the fact that, okay, I've exchanged money for goods, there's something about that that happens psychologically, that you're like, 'I'm treating myself,' or 'I'm getting my money's worth out of it,' by having that moment. And while the freedom and the accessibility of Instagram can be great in many ways, it's a very different experience than, 'I'm making sure that I get what I paid for.' Which is great!

John Coe  36:38

We talked a bit off air about things like algorithms and whether... is it worth having mastery on a system that's changing around you? But Rachel, my wife, made a really good point the other day, [which] is that all the things that are changing with Instagram, they've got every right to change, because it's a free service to all of us. We aren't paying for it. So if it changes, it changes. We move to something else, and that's a risk they run, and we run using it. But when you've gone, 'Well, I earned my money. I'm treating myself to this, or I have a subscription to that, or I'll pick this up,' you've invested it in some way. And I suppose what I try to do is put my sort of joy for the genre, or the area of printmaking, into the mag, and then hopefully with enough care and attention, that sort of then feeds other people's. I get asked quite a lot about me as a printmaker, and I think it's quite hard for me to be a particularly good printmaker and also make the magazine. Because I see so many other people's work. And it must be the same, in some ways, with you and the podcast, and maybe other people who curate things, I suppose. But I guess I'm featuring 15, 20, 30 projects every issue that I, and a few others, think is the best work going on. And then to look at your own stuff in context to that and go, 'Oh, man!' I'm just like a magpie when it comes to influences for the magazine, that when I come to do stuff, it's way more, 'Oh, how did they do that? I want to try!' You know? So I've, over the years, I've become much better at saying to myself, 'I just like experimenting.' You know. I like trying things. The things I've seen, 'Oh, how did they do that? I'll try that.' That's the other thing, is I'm massively in awe of artists who have a singular thing that they're looking at, or way that they approach their work. And I guess you could flip that and say, well, the magazine is that for me. Because I'm primarily a graphic designer. But yeah, I also feel like if I didn't get my hands inky every once in a while, I'd feel like a bit of a fraud.

Miranda Metcalf  38:55

Yeah, I could totally see that. There's something important about the actual experience. You can't just sit up in an ivory tower and observe without the doing. Yeah. Do you have any sort of dreams for the magazine? I know we talked a little bit about this, but things that, if you had unlimited time, resources, energy, that you would love to see Pressing Matters be in two years, five years, that kind of thing?

John Coe  39:28

You asked me if I have a business plan. Never! Yeah, no, I do. And interestingly, I think that's become more post my medical stuff that I had earlier in the year. Fundamentally, for me, the magazine is about inspiring and educating people. So there's a few other ideas I've got outside of just selling more mags.  I'm interested in spaces quite a lot. Like how when you bring people together in spaces, conversations happen, and then when conversations happen, then things happen. And I think we talked about residencies earlier on, about visiting artists. I've got a bit of a dream space in my mind, and it's probably going to take a while for it to happen. But I can imagine a space that... you know, let's say there is some kind of Airbnb set up where someone could come and stay, but I don't think it necessarily would end up being something in the pages of the magazine. But I think... I kind of like this idea that an artist could come and then show some stuff, and then we could do a little video of them. And maybe the content could grow slightly outside the pages of the magazine, and have a slightly different sort of - well, just a variety of formats that people can interact with. Also... I mean, I'd love some sort of college that wasn't a school thing to happen. Like, a lot of the people I know teach print, you know? And it would be great to bring all of that together in some kind of way, where people could be quite experimental. I think if we could facilitate more and more people to print more and more, to explore their ideas more and more... my friend Carl Middleton and I are working on some ideas at the moment. And one of them's using Lego with letterpress, you know, flat Lego to print modular things. And it's just so good. You don't have to be able to draw. You can just put the blocks together. And if somebody says, 'Just do a face. Do a self portrait out of Lego,' you can! You know, you can just play. It's just play, and then you put ink on it, and you get a print. And I think anything I will do or want to do will just hopefully still have that sort of red thread through it from the magazine into other areas. We did actually talk about podcasts at one point, me and Vinca, because we actually had a period where we were doing Zooms for interviews. Made a lot of recordings of interviews. So when you go through the process of writing it down, and then putting it into a story in a magazine, it's shorter by a lot. But also, the way people say it in their own voice, as you'll find - and we are trying to explore in the mag - but in a podcast, it's really interesting to hear the person's voice, and their accent, and all those kinds of things. But I know my limits, certainly on my own. And so talking with you about that more could be interesting for the future... I think there's just so many people who are good at what they do. I think I'm quite good at doing the mag, and I'm quite happy sticking with that. But I'd love to see some of these ideas, find a space, explore something that we're both excited about at the event in Santa Fe. So that's the thing for me, [the] importance of getting these relationships going. The guys at Woolwich Print Fair are always really generous and say, 'Oh, it would be great if you can have some print happening,' and we always want that to be going on. So yeah, Martin, who you worked with recently, my buddy - he's always there with us at some of these fairs.

Miranda Metcalf  39:55

Right, yeah. Oh, he was wonderful. Yeah.

John Coe  43:14

So... I think at the moment, I'm doing things that I want to be doing, but in a small way, based on the energy and time I have. But I think the intent is there to explore, maybe spaces, and... yeah, how do you do that kind of thing without being really full time on that as well? And not have employees? I don't know how it works, really, Miranda. I don't know.

Miranda Metcalf  43:44

I feel the exact same way. Because you know, I have so many different ideas, constantly, about projects that would be fun to do. I just had Cammy and Edie on from Newsprint Pod, and they do a wonderful job doing it. They do a monthly podcast that's about the news of the print world. And it's very charming. And we had this idea of, what if we were able to travel to a city and do in depth podcasts, investigative style reporting podcasts, more in the style of something like This American Life, where it's actually - rather than just an interview - it's, this is the story of printmaking in Cleveland. Or, this is the story of printmaking in St. Louis. And how fun that would be! And I'm all jazzed about that idea. And then as you say, all of those thoughts, it's like, how does that not become your full time job? How do you work to sustain yourself to do the things that make money so you can do this? How do you do that without paying anyone? And it's sad sometimes, but there's also something so hopeful about that. And how I think part of the charm of the print world is that you find so many people here who are keen to take on something else, just from this place of love and wanting to see it in the world. And I've never found that in other communities to the extent that it is in the print world, where it's just, 'You're doing a thing? I love that thing! How can I help your thing? Here's my thing, do you want to do anything with it?' And it's just this collaborative nature and this through line of enthusiasm, and community, that's so powerful and so exciting. And if I... it's the only space in which I wish I just was, you know, the heiress to an emerald mine or something and didn't have to worry about money or time. I just think about the projects I could do! Opening a space, and starting that... you know, all of that!

John Coe  45:40

Yeah, yeah... I think for me, it's more my health stuff's made me slow down a bit, but it's also made me think, right, there's a difference between 'What if I employ someone to do social media? Then we could sell a million more magazines!' Or this, that, and the other. Not all these 'what if's and 'could be's, but more like, an idea is still a good idea. It has its place in space. And sometimes it's not me that makes that happen. And maybe that will happen more in the magazine. Maybe I'll set off some ideas in the page of the magazine, and set them as challenges, or more of these, you know, print challenges, but could other people come together in a different way? So I think we're both definitely in the right places to explore all of that.

Miranda Metcalf  46:21

Yeah, yeah. Do you have any favorite stories or favorite features? If you're allowed to play favorites a bit as the editor? That you've just like, since 2017, it's been like, 'I'm so happy this was made. I'm so happy this is in the world.'

John Coe  46:37

Yeah, ones that pop out to me... well, the issue that I felt so - issue three, when issue three came out, it was... so issue one was very West Country UK, Southwest, which is where I'm based. But then, same as the first Bone Shaker Magazine, it was just people we knew. The second one was like, people who just heard of it saying, 'Oh, can I be in it? Can I do something?' So it became quite universal, international, quite quickly. Issue three, I think we featured Angie Lewin, maybe Anthony Burrill. There were two or three people who I've always, as a graphic designer - not print person, but as a graphic designer - been really interested in. And they already were like, 'This is great!' About the magazine. So issue three was one of those ones - not particularly the whole of the stories, but the way that one came together, it was a real - and that was the second year. So I did two in the first year. - So that was a real vote of confidence, it felt, for me, third issue, that I could at least do another three. And keep going for the next year. Issue six, we got to do a piece on John Pedder, who I've since become pretty good friends with. I've designed his book, and... but even that one had the Black Women of Print, it had - I am looking this up, by the way. Because it's not all kept in my head. - We had people like Supermundane, who's a brilliant illustrator and designer print house who just printed our t-shirts. It's interesting, this is quite an early issue, but we're still working with them. Jo Stafford, who's part of the printmaking group in Norwich. So there's lots of people who were in, again, issue six, that felt like an important one. I'm not going to be able to guess which issue it was in, but on a personal note, I've always been a big Radiohead fan. And so when we featured Stanley Donwood -

Miranda Metcalf  48:24

I remember that.

John Coe  48:25

- He said, 'Let's just -' because he doesn't want to fill in the Q&A - he was like, 'Come meet me.' And he was based in Bath at the time, which is near Bristol. So myself and my friend Mike, who actually was a writer for Bone Shaker, and he was also a fan - and so we're like, 'Oh!' - Well, we went to meet him, and his studio was so nice. And he was such a nice guy. But literally within 20 minutes, he was like, 'There's a great pub 'round the corner.' So we were like, 'We get to go for a beer with Stanley Donwood!' But even in our first 20 minutes, he was just showing us all these sheets of stickers he'd done with Radiohead, and some of the original paintings that ended up in their artwork. And at the time, he was working on his linocut book, which was a series of linocuts, which is part of what we talked about in there. But I was really surprised, as I just thought of him as a painter, mainly, but had done this kind of project and a few other things. But the more we talked to him, the more [we learned] he'd done etchings, copperplate etchings, all this kind of stuff. Really interested in it. And he was someone we, I think, managed to speak to because he knew Nick Hand from The Letterpress Collective. Who I think was in issue one, but also has been a big, you know - I don't want to embarrass him, I won't say hero - but he's just been someone who's worked in the print world for a very long time in a really cool way. He was a graphic designer, he still is. He's done some really interesting things with his time, you know. And so, going back to your previous question, actually, I'd like things to go in that direction. Which is just to sort of facilitate more print, more interesting projects, both for myself and the people involved in the mag. But yeah, definitely Stanley Donwood, on a personal note, was quite a fun one to do and be involved in.

Miranda Metcalf  50:12

Yeah, it was a great one. I remember it. Yeah. Oh, wonderful.

John Coe  50:17

And I mean, I will say - I don't know when this will come out, whether it's before the next issue or not. But I'm excited to be talking to Kate Gibb, who, back in the day, did lots of artwork for the Chemical Brothers. But now she's just doing all kinds of stuff with clothing, she does a lot of stuff with the Jealous Gallery in London. And her work is just fantastic. Very, very much what I'm interested in at the moment, personally. How you bring collage in the sort of... you know, the areas that naturally come in printmaking, or in artmaking, how you can keep them special. Particularly with something like screenprinting, which, once you set it up, you can just do the same thing. How do you keep that interesting every edition? Is it moving it slightly? Is it making the colors jar? And so it's quite exciting to be talking to her for this new issue as well.

Miranda Metcalf  51:09

I'm very excited to read that for sure. And so we're just coming up already on our hour mark here. So it's time for me to ask, where can people find Pressing Matters? Where can they purchase it, where can they follow it, where can they get excited about it?

John Coe  51:28

I would say that probably Instagram is not... I don't stay on top of it every day, I used to do a lot more. But essentially, all the things I'm interested in, all the things to do with the magazine when it comes out, etc., is always on Instagram. We also do a newsletter fortnightly - I say 'we' - I have really enjoyed writing that myself. And I tend to put more time sensitive things in that, and talk about when we release things like the t-shirts and things. So you can sign up to the newsletter via our website. And yeah, you can subscribe or just buy a single copy from our website as well. We have quite a lot of copies in different stockists, but they're in lots of different countries. So it really depends.

Miranda Metcalf  52:12

Yeah. Probably easiest to go to the website.

John Coe  52:14

I will always encourage people to subscribe with us, because that's just part of the business side of it... we sell wholesale bundles to stockists, but actually a lot of print studios will buy them for their members and things like that, because there's a sort of discount if you buy five or ten of them, and things. So I mean, I'm interested in the business side of all of this, but also, I get out of bed to design the magazine, to tell the stories moreover. So yeah, people will just check out Instagram and our website.

Miranda Metcalf  52:52

And I can speak to, at least for me, just investing in a subscription, and just paying the yearly fee, more than pays for itself for me. In terms of just that little thrill when you open the mailbox or the post box and you're like, 'It's here!' And you get to open it. And just, it's really, it's just an experience that you don't get very much out in the world, I think, in other ways. You really... that sort of opening a present feeling, I think, is really what it feels like. So I highly recommend doing it. That's great!

John Coe  53:28

Thank you.

Miranda Metcalf  53:28

Well, it's been really wonderful to chat, John. I really am - like I said, I'm just very, very happy that we were able to actually connect, because I've been an admirer of what you produce for so long and have really enjoyed working with you, and I hope we get to do so more and collaborate more.

John Coe  53:34

Love to. Absolutely.

Miranda Metcalf  53:37

It would be great. Wonderful.