Episode 170 | Chris Estrada

Published December 14, 2022

Transcript

Miranda Metcalf  00:25

Hi, Chris. How's it going?

Chris Estrada  02:23

Hey, it's going well, Miranda, how are you?

Miranda Metcalf  02:26

It's good. It's really nice to see you in person in real time. I feel like you've got such a forward facing internet presence that I feel like I know your vibe so well. But it's great to see you kind of in real life-ish.

Chris Estrada  02:42

Yeah, it's weird that I'm actually wearing a shirt and not just taking a selfie this time.

Miranda Metcalf  02:47

Yeah, I love it. It's a whole new side of you.

Chris Estrada  02:50

Yeah, this is my new vibe. Shirts only 2022. The rest of the year I'm keeping my shirt on.

Miranda Metcalf  02:57

So I'm really excited to talk to you and to get to know a little bit more of your background. I feel like when I stumbled upon Farewell Transmission out there on the internet, you were like Athena. It was like this fully formed thing that just burst forth from Zeus's head.

Chris Estrada  03:15

Oh, I love that.

Miranda Metcalf  03:15

I was just like, 'Oh my gosh. This has it all together!' Like, you had this aesthetic, you had these really consistent posts, you seem to have your drops streamlined. And I want to know the journey to finding that, and so I'm really excited to chat about it. Yeah.

Chris Estrada  03:34

Yeah, that's good. I think I'm gonna put that on my CV. Like, "The Athena of printmaking." I'll see if that opens any doors for me.

Miranda Metcalf  03:43

I think that's good. Yeah.

Chris Estrada  03:44

Yeah, it's been a journey of making the wrong decision every single time, to ultimately get to where maybe the wrong decision seems intentional. So it looks like I'm doing my thing, but it's still... yeah, it's going well.

Miranda Metcalf  04:01

I really want to hear about that. I love a wrong decision. I've made so many in my life.

Chris Estrada  04:07

Oh, I'm your man. Yeah. This is a perfect place for me.

Miranda Metcalf  04:12

But before we get into that, would you just let people know who you are, where you are, what you do?

Chris Estrada  04:19

Yeah, my name is Chris Estrada. I am a printmaker. I'm based in Long Beach, which is Southern California, Los Angeles County. I am from Southern California, but I'm from the Inland Empire, which I think you probably had some people shut off as soon as they heard that. It doesn't really carry a great reputation. So I'm sorry if that torpedoed this whole thing. I have a BFA in printmaking from Cal State Long Beach, which is cool, because that's been a pretty beneficial thing for networking or working with cool people. I work in the art world. I have my own prints through Farewell Transmission Prints, which is like zines and prints and a lot of shirts, and just kind of any weird stuff I can do. Yeah, that's me.

Miranda Metcalf  05:07

Yeah. And then what was the art scene like, in your sort of perception of it, when you were growing up? Were you an arty kid? Did you go to museums? What was that time like?

Chris Estrada  05:20

Okay, it's really interesting, because... I grew up with a single parent, and my mom does paint. And my mom does watercolor, now she does wind chimes, which is pretty sweet. You might hear them out on my porch while we record.

Miranda Metcalf  05:34

Oh, how lovely.

Chris Estrada  05:35

Yeah. But we did go to museums, because they were free. So the positive is free museums or libraries were where we spent a fair amount of time. And I have two siblings, and they're both pretty creative and pretty artistic people too. But there was never any formal structure to that. Like, we painted Christmas ornaments with my mom. And we could always draw, there were colored pencils and crayons in the house and stuff like that. But never any type of art class. There was never any... if there are resources like that, I just never took advantage of them. And I didn't really know - I mean, I still don't really know what opportunities exist where I'm from. Didn't take art classes throughout school. I took some photography classes in high school. But even that was, I don't think I really ever considered myself an artist. But it all stemmed from writing graffiti as a teenager. And then I played guitar in punk and hardcore bands, and somebody had to make the t-shirts and do the flyer designs. So it was a little bit out of necessity. And I did always enjoy it, but I never really had any concept of structure, or any structure to guide me, or any summer programs or anything like that. Which, probably... maybe I would be making better art if I had gone to that. But yeah, it worked out okay for me, I think.

Miranda Metcalf  07:04

Yeah. And so, when you talk about getting into graffiti, were you really doing figurative work in that? Like, were you actually doing paintings? Or was it more artistic writing in terms of tagging? What was that really early first art making in a public way like for Chris?

Chris Estrada  07:22

Definitely not figurative, or beneficial to the community, or aesthetically pleasing, or respectful of public property. It was, I mean, it was just like, that was the medium that was maybe heralded within my friend group. And that was like... but it was never... this is before that big crest of graffiti came back into popular culture and was really championed by people. This is before Banksy had dropped, and this is before things like that. So there was never any concept of what - it was never like, 'Oh, I'm trying to make something beautiful for people to see,' it was definitely more destructive than it was - like, I wasn't doing anything good. And definitely nothing that I would ever want anyone to see now.

Miranda Metcalf  08:15

Gotcha. But it still was, it sounds like, it was early mark making. And then also making with an audience in mind, you know, I mean, that's one of the things I think about in terms of graffiti. And I've talked to several artists who have that early influence. And this idea of putting something up in a public space, knowing that it's going to be seen and interacted with, with the sort of general public. It's an unusual method to start out with, and I think it does plant some seeds, maybe, in terms of the way artists think about communicating, or a lot of graffiti can even be about obscuring the communication as well, I think, which is really interesting. Yeah.

Chris Estrada  08:57

Yeah, definitely. There are some concepts that I carried with me that... it definitely taught me, and I think I try to carry this with printmaking in general, but just treating art as a little less precious than I would if I went to a museum and I saw a painting. And you know, that is the sole painting. I mean, that is it. And for that, that's really beautiful. And that's important. But when you are wheat pasting or writing graffiti, it could be gone tomorrow. And you go into it not ever thinking, okay, this is going to be something that people are going to look back on and really love and cherish, and this is going to exist... and I mean, I guess maybe great art is thought of in that way, with preservation in mind. But I think what I got from that was just, I mean, get it out there. And once you're done with that, you're already moving on to the next project. And so it's definitely quantity over quality, which is maybe not the best mindset to have when making art, but it's one of those lessons that I learned from that, that I continue using today.

Miranda Metcalf  08:57

Yeah. And so where did you go from sort of doing the punk rock posters and the graffiti to doing a BFA?

Chris Estrada  10:22

Oh, man.

Miranda Metcalf  10:22

When did that go through?

Chris Estrada  10:25

So I did pretty well in high school, I played music, I went to a four year [college] straight out of high school. And I went for maybe like a year, a year and a half. And then I realized that I had no interest in a degree in English and was never really going to use it. I was just doing it because I thought I had to. So I dropped out of college. And then I moved out of state. I moved to Salt Lake and I lived there for four years. And I ended up working for - Salt Lake City Punks, yeah. I ran a record store while I was out there, which was really cool. And it's funny when I think about that time, because I wasn't making anything. I wasn't doing flyers for anything. It wasn't particularly involved. I drew the signs for the record store that I was managing, and that was fun. But art was really in the back of my mind at that point. But I was absorbing, just appreciating all the albums that came through and just kind of sitting with records and being a total nerd in that regard. And, I guess, absorbing stuff that I would later want to use. But I came back to California, I was here for a while. And it wasn't until I went back to community college in my mid-20s, and I had no idea what I was gonna go for. But I took a screenprinting class, just because I had wanted to continue screenprinting shirts. And it was in the Applied Science, next to the automotive. It wasn't part of the art department. And it was really crunchy. It was more a trade than it was an art class. And I was working at a bookstore at the time, and I had talked to a customer who taught jewelry at the community college and she had urged me to take the printmaking class. And was telling me, 'Okay, this screenprinting class isn't really an art class, but you should take the printmaking class. I think you'd really like it.' And I was, being myself, I was resistant. And I thought, 'Oh, no, I'm not interested in that aspect of it. I'm not really an artist, I just need to know what to do. I just want the tools to be able to do what I want to do.' And I took the printmaking class, and it changed everything.

Miranda Metcalf  10:54

Salt Lake City Punks, hey?  Yeah. What was it about that class that really was able to make that shift in your mind? You know, where you're like, 'Hey, maybe I am an artist.'

Chris Estrada  12:52

So it's a few things that happened that really were like the perfect storm, because I am sometimes hard headed and not particularly easy to teach. But it turned out that my professor is this incredible dude named Rick Reese, who is actually a friend of mine, and we go to punk shows now, which is really cool. But he was somebody that I could connect with, first through music, then through art, and just turned out to be the right person at the right time. And then - this is perfect, because I think you're recording with him today - but Rick showed us a video of Bill Fick. And it was on Vimeo, and it was... he's carving this big linocut of a devil's head. And I was just entranced. And don't tell Bill this, because we're cool, but next time I see him I don't want to get all red-faced and blushy. But I was watching, and I was just like, I'd never - I guess, if I had seen woodcuts, I guess I'd never really thought too much about the process. I was not a printmaker, and was really only art adjacent, but not too invested. And watching the process of that, and then watching it print and realizing, oh, this is art. And this is also a really cool devil head. It put me on track, which, again, not to be a total fanboy of Bill Fick, but it really sent me in the right direction and got me stoked.

Miranda Metcalf  14:19

Yeah, and I think I've heard that from other printmakers... in our generation. And I sort of think of that as people who are being exposed to printmaking really before Instagram, before there was this ability to access images from all over the world, so many different printmakers, that it really was exposure to some of the people who are maybe under the Outlaw umbrella. Like Carlos Hernandez, Bill Fick, Tom Huck, where all of a sudden they saw this and they were like, 'Holy crap, this is someone who is using printmaking in a way that connects with me. And connects with the aesthetics that I am interested in.' And It doesn't need to be this perfectly aquatinted landscape with a 1930s car in the front of it -which, I love that, too. But I think seeing that particular generation of artists and what they were doing with it... and it's interesting that you bring Bill up, because I've interviewed some of those people, including Bill, and a lot of them actually do point to records as the first sort of subversive art they ever saw. Because they're sort of the print generation above us, a lot of those guys. And so not only did they not have the internet, but all they had was a record store. If they wanted to see a skull dripping ooze, or they wanted to see any imagery that had an edge to it. So I do feel like there's sort of a lineage and a through line in being inspired by someone like Bill, and also the art as it relates to music, which I'm sure we'll get into later, is now such a part of your current practice. Yeah.

Chris Estrada  16:05

Yeah, that was really - seeing what Burning Bones was doing, and Carlos, and Tess Doyle, and all that was, when I first stumbled across that, it was like, 'Oh, man! This is what I want to be doing, but done way better than I'm doing [it].' But it was just so influential and cool to see, like, oh, right. This is art. And it's not something that's separate from art, because it maybe harkens back to punk music, or it harkens back to rock and roll. And that doesn't feel like "fine art." But that put it into... I think it just maybe helped me realize how vast art can be, and how it doesn't have to be - when you don't come from a heavy art background, you separate yourself from it. And it took me a really long time to even consider myself an artist, and understand that I was an artist. And even when I was making art, it was like, always on the backburner. But the more you realize, 'Oh, wait, no, I am an artist!' And I don't know, nobody was gatekeeping it for me. Nobody was telling me I was not an artist but myself. But seeing people do things that really were like, 'Oh my gosh, this is what I want to be doing! This is what I'm into. And these people are artists!' And I guess I stumbled into realizing I was an artist too.

Miranda Metcalf  17:29

Yeah, yeah. And so how would you describe your current practice and what you're doing now?

Chris Estrada  17:35

Oh, my god, chaos. Chaos, and like, this really... I don't know, it's really interesting. So I've been working a lot on bootleg t-shirts lately, which is awesome. And also probably super detrimental - again, to nobody, I don't think anybody worries about it but me. But I make a lot of bootleg t-shirts for music that I like that I maybe don't think has great shirts. And I try to get them to everybody who wants them for an affordable price. But then it's really funny, because I started meeting people who would see me and say, 'Oh, you're the t-shirt designer,' or like, 'Oh, yeah, you make t-shirts for a living. That's really cool.' And that felt like, 'Oh, no, now I have to print flat stock! I'm not a t-shirt designer!' Like, 'Wait!' But my current practice is just, it's really nice, because it's whatever pops up in my dumb little brain. And now that I have this skill set to make it a reality, it's just anything. There are definitely limitations, but I don't think I'm willing to really recognize them until I hit a hard stop, and I'm like, 'Oh, wait, I can't - why am I trying to do this? I can't do this.' But it's... yeah, chaos, I guess, would be the right descriptor.

Miranda Metcalf  17:35

Yeah, I think there's something kind of - you know,  the images that I've seen of your work have been through your Instagram, I think, primarily, and then you've got the online site. I feel like there's something really id about your work, where it really does feel like it's coming from... I don't know, like an unfiltered place. And of course, it is filtered, because you've made a decision to do it. But there's something about the energy around it that has, like, chaos and id, but in a very good way. In a really satisfying way. And in a way that I feel like... it feels a little bit like an aesthetic reaction to the ultra-sharp, ultra-curated, ultra-shiny world that the internet usually is. That Instagram usually is. That's like, this is my best self on my best day with my best lighting. But, you know, that just feels sort of shiny and artificial. And I think some of the imagery you make, there's something that feels intuitive and pure in it, that is what I respond to in it for sure.

Chris Estrada  20:07

I love that. Thank you, I take that as a compliment. It's not that I think the work that I'm making is particularly transgressive, or complex or hard, or not palatable, but I am always surprised that there's any resonance or that people connect with it. Because it's really just always like, 'Okay, cool!' I'm on a kick of watching all Godzilla movies. And it's like, oh my god, wait, what if we did - or I'm listening to the Stooges, and I'm like, oh, a nuclear bomb and Godzilla, right? Oh, what about these Japanese soft vinyl toys? Or like, what if we're using bloody wrestlers from the '60s? Or car crashes from the '50s? Or what if we... and it's just, it's really cool. And it's been a really positive experience of putting my work out there and having like... I haven't really had anybody come up to me and tell me I suck, which I probably need. I mean, somebody could, I could definitely use the humbling. So if anybody is a hater, please, check me out. I could use it. But it's been really cool to just make whatever weird stuff is in my brain and have it connect. And... I guess it is pure in the sense that like, sometimes I make stuff thinking, 'Alright, well, this is it. This is the last time people are going to be into this.' Or, again, not that I'm pushing crazy boundaries, but sometimes it feels like, 'Well, this is going to be detrimental and maybe prevent me from having any opportunities in the future.' But I can't not be me, even if it's gonna - and again, I think a lot of that is because maybe I'm not financially dependent on the art that I make. Because I do have a day job. But yeah, it's been cool to just throw whatever out there and have people be into it. It feels nice.

Miranda Metcalf  22:08

Yeah, yeah. And what you're speaking of, in terms of making these connections that make sense to you and putting them out in the world, really without knowing that anyone else is going to make the connection, then discovering time and time again that they do... it sounds like a very cool experience. And it reminds me of - so the first shirt I ever bought from you was the Belle & Sebastian, If You're Feeling Sinister. And so it just says "Belle & Sebastian If You're Feeling Sinister," you know, their best album. And it had an image of - from Richard Scarry - of a fox riding a motorcycle. And it just made complete sense to me. Like, I saw it, and I was like, the fox riding the motorcycle with his little goggles and his little scarf is the energy of If You're Feeling Sinister, the album. And I'm like, I don't know why, but I just know it's true!

Chris Estrada  23:08

I love that! Aw, that feels so cool. Yeah. That's great.

Miranda Metcalf  23:14

And I don't know if - you know, there is a song on the album, "The Fox In The Snow," that actually mentions a fox.

Chris Estrada  23:18

Yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  23:20

But there's something about the sort of fanciness meets rebellion, [with] the idea of the motorcycle, but then he's got this little proper scarf on, and these cute little goggles. And there's something about the energy of that album that is sort of like fancy British schools, but like, weird adolescent horniness and existential crisis as well. And it just feels like, I was like, yeah! That's that fox! And so... it just feels really right. And I'm just wondering, is that your process when you're matching these albums, or these artists, with this imagery? Is it just like, this just feels right? Or do you have a more specific process when you go through it?

Chris Estrada  24:06

No, it's definitely like... so I am a record person. And a lot of what I do is usually scans from inserts and from sleeves, and I try to not really ever take too much just from image searching. I always want it to be - and I mean, it is a bootleg t-shirt. So there are some... maybe it's like there are some negative impacts. I think Belle & Sebastian will be okay. But it is always trying to look at the things that they were doing, and just - because I was having this - okay, this a little bit of a tangent. Are you ready for this?

Miranda Metcalf  24:45

I'm ready.

Chris Estrada  24:46

Okay, so where I grew up, there were not any music stores. And there was a music store, but it was about an hour north. And I was like 14 or 15, and I didn't drive yet. And my sister would drive out there on... I think it was probably like Friday nights, and she would go play Magic the Gathering. And I was just like, 'Please take me! I just want to go to the record store, please!' She would say, 'Okay, but I'm not leaving early. I'm going to do my thing.' My sister is two years older than me. She'd be like, 'Okay, but you're going to have to wait.' I was like, 'Okay, cool.' So I'd go to the record store, and she would go to the comic book store or wherever they were doing... yeah, I think it was a comic book store. And I would go and look through the CDs or the records, or whatever it was. And I would pick an album. And in this particular moment, I remember it being a CD. I would find a CD and I'm just like, 'Oh, yeah, this is it! This is the one I have to have!' This is pre-internet, so I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I couldn't listen to it beforehand. I only knew about a band because another band had mentioned it in the liner notes, or I saw somebody wearing a shirt. But I would take that, and then I would have to sit in her car and just listen to the CD in my little portable CD player, and just tear through the liner notes and read everything and see who did the sleeve design, and what bands they thanked, and I would just spend an ungodly amount of time - which is realistically probably like two hours while she played Magic - but I would just sit with that CD and absorb it. So the process that I have now - which is probably terrible, because I'm not a note taker, and I don't keep a sketchbook, and I don't draw thumbnails - but I just get this seed in my head of like, 'Okay, cool...' Like, yesterday was a big Linda Ronstadt day. I was just working, listening to Linda Ronstadt. And I was like, 'Damn, I should do something... maybe I should do a Linda Ronstadt shirt.' Just because it's something that I want, which would be cool. So then I'll just keep listening to the album, or I'll keep just [thinking], 'Oh, yeah, right. This is cool... oh, yeah, this is cool. This is a cool line, how does this relate?' And it marinates in my brain, and then maybe I'll look through, like, some resources, or I'll think about imagery that might pair well with it and how it would look together. And it just formulates like that, which feels like... yeah, it feels like a cool process. Because it's just like sitting with your subject matter for a while instead of... maybe there's a better way of doing it. But...

Miranda Metcalf  27:26

No, I think that that has a sense, to me, of finding ways to sort of access your subconscious. To just sit with something and... not in a passive way, but like, a semi-passive way, just let it percolate. And maybe we could get into some sort of like, Freudian free association, where you're just like, 'Belle & Sebastian! If You're Feeling Sinister! Fox on a motorcycle!' You know, it's this way of dropping in past the chatter and past the sort of high-brain analytic, to sort of fall into just, what is the feeling of this? How does this connect to other things I've experienced? And that long form, just sort of sitting with something, I feel like is a good way of doing that.

Chris Estrada  28:12

Yeah. It seems to work. I definitely did scan the... like, on If You're Feeling Sinister, on the center label for the record is this really sketchy fox drawing, and they had used it on shirts quite a while ago, and I just don't like it. And I wanted to like it. And I was like, oh, yeah, I'll do a Fox In The Snow shirt! I love this song. It's a cool fox. And I just could not get into the drawing. It just... I mean, I'm not sure who did it. But I was like, surely there's something better than this. And I think I had just picked up that Richard Scarry [book], the cars... I wish I could remember - "Things That Move?" I have it over on my...

Miranda Metcalf  28:54

Yeah, "Things That Move!" I think that's what it is.

Chris Estrada  28:55

Yeah! So I was poring through there. And it was like, oh, yeah, there's the cheese car, right? You got all the mice in the cheese car. That's a classic. And then you have the dog in the convertible with the cowboy hat. And it's like, oh, yeah, this is a good one. This is great. And I was probably listening to records and looking through books and it just clicked, like, oh, yeah, there's a fox on a motorcycle. Fox In The Snow. This fox is a lot cooler than that kind of corny fox on the inner label. And, yeah, it just seemed to work.

Miranda Metcalf  29:25

At the risk of sounding didactic or moralistic, do you think the kids are really, really missing out by not having liner notes? I know that contemporary artists are still producing LPs, they've been doing that for a while, and recently the real cool kids like Olivia Rodrigo are making cassette tapes now...

Chris Estrada  29:46

Yeah, yeah. I love that that's back.

Miranda Metcalf  29:49

It's so good. But for the most part, [at the time], anyone who listened to music would be buying liner notes for the work. And now it's like, there's a really specific subset of people who are going to go out and get the cassette tape, or going to get the LP, when they can just stream it. Do you think that that's really...  I don't want to be like, 'Let's judge the kids these days,' but is that bad?

Chris Estrada  30:14

It's so complicated, because it's such a double-edged sword. Because I think that being able to stream music - I mean, I've benefited from it, from hearing stuff that there's no way I could afford a copy of that record, or how would I ever hear a band from Sweden that put out an album in 1984? So it's really cool, because I feel like maybe I have been able to listen to more stuff, or people have so much more access to information and to music and to culture, and it becomes this massive global thing instead of just pockets. But I do think that you put a lot less work into it, so maybe it's a lot less important. And it's also kind of like... when you didn't have the means or the accessibility - I mean, a record store wasn't going to have every single album, so if you wanted to listen to that band, you bought it. And sometimes you bought the shittiest album, and it became your favorite. You never knew. There are plenty of bands that it's like, oh, yeah, this live CD was the only thing they had. So this is all I know, and it's what I love, even if it's notoriously the worst thing.

Miranda Metcalf  31:27

Yeah.

Chris Estrada  31:28

So I think you just invest differently.

Miranda Metcalf  31:31

I often think about that, how my relationship to music is so different when it's streamed versus when it's on a record, because I just listen to the songs that give me instant gratification when I stream. And I would have these arcs of relationships with albums, pre-streaming, where that weird, esoteric, long song at the end, on the hidden track, I used to hate. But then after just like, being too lazy to get up and turn off the CD three times in a row, I was like, 'Oh! This is actually really cool!' And so that relationship of the evolution of how you can feel, and what you can get out of songs, it's totally divorced from the way I consume music now when I'm streaming it. Versus when it's on an LP, and I love track three, but I'm gonna listen to the whole thing through because I just put it out from the beginning.

Chris Estrada  32:25

Yeah, I'm not gonna get up.

Miranda Metcalf  32:26

It's very different. Yeah, I'm not getting up for that!

Chris Estrada  32:28

I guess it's even comparable - to tie it back to art - is it's like seeing a show, or going to a gallery or museum, versus seeing it online. Or seeing a [picture in a] book versus going and actually seeing a painting. And it wasn't until I got to see like a bunch of Durer stuff in person... or even like, I had this really cool experience where I went to the Seattle Art Museum just on a whim. I was up there by myself and had a free day. And I showed up, and there was a ton of Goya's work and a ton of Durer's stuff. And then they also had the whole illustrated Old Testament by Robert Crumb, and I'd never seen those.

Miranda Metcalf  33:10

I remember that show! Yeah, it was a great show!

Chris Estrada  33:13

Yeah! Graphic Masters, or something like that? It was like 2016?

Miranda Metcalf  33:16

I think it was... it was Graphic something. I think it was Graphic Masters, yeah. But it was really, I had always appreciated R. Crumb's work, but then seeing the amount of whiteout that was used, showing you, oh, look at all these mistakes! People fuck up constantly. And there are ways to move forward and not get stuck in that. And so I think my investment in that art was greater, because I get to see it in person and I felt obligated to also sit with it, instead of just moving past it. Yeah. I think that's a really good comparison. Because again, I think there's also that direct comparison between the instant gratification - like, people scroll through Instagram - I'm sure there's all kinds of studies that you spend, like, .89 seconds on an image. And so the image has to just give everything all at once instantly. Whereas, as you say, going to a show... you've spent some money, often - like, the Seattle Art Museum is not free - so if you've spent some money, you've gone in, you've made a financial investment, you've made a time investment, you've made a travel investment, and so you're like, 'Okay, I'm gonna look at each one.' Yeah, and I think that it's really easy to get very "this is good and this is bad" about it, but I think it's more true to just say it's very different, and they're serving different purposes. And I think as long as there's space for both experiences still in the world - and I think my anxiety is that the long form experience will eventually get totally pushed out, which is sort of stressful. That galleries will close, and museums will close, because everyone just wants to consume art through Instagram. But so far, so good. Yeah. They're holding on.

Chris Estrada  35:00

What a weird - that's such a bizarre... even when people were going to art school during the pandemic, and not being able to go to the studio or go to a gallery, or it's like taking like an art history class online where you're never really seeing... It's cool when you get to visit, for a class, you have to go look at something and then you're writing a paper on it. And I think that it's a lot more impactful, and it kind of stays with you. But it is interesting to see. Like, you've only ever experienced a lot of pieces of work just by a photograph. And it's probably a low res photo that somebody just pulled for a presentation. And you never really... at least personally, I don't know - not like the royal "you" or "we" - but personally, it doesn't resonate the same. So it's a little concerning to think that everything would just be online, or there would be less of a personal connection in the future. That's a little alarming.

Miranda Metcalf  35:59

Yeah, yeah. I want to circle back from something you mentioned a little bit earlier, where you were talking about how the work that you make, you're like, 'I just need this to be in the world. I just need to have it seen in the world.' And so you've thought, like, 'Well, maybe if I make this, it will sink the ship,' you know?

Chris Estrada  36:19

Yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  36:20

Because you do make work that's - I find the Richard Scarry Belle & Sebastian shirt just very dear, very sweet. And then you make a shirt that says '[Gimme] Your Hot, White Cum.'

Chris Estrada  36:31

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  36:32

And they're under the same brand, they're in the same feed, and I'm just really curious about that. Because is it something that is like, this is just what I need to see on a t-shirt? And then also, do you plan like, 'Well, I might need to make 100 Belle & Sebastian, but I'm gonna make 15 White Cum shirts?' Like, logistically?

Chris Estrada  36:56

I think I am always convinced that it's not gonna... I don't invest too heavily - I'm never printing 100 shirts, because I also like the idea of it, like, well, if you showed up, you got one. And if you didn't get one, maybe you'll get one - I mean, not everybody needs a t-shirt. So having everything available all the time sometimes feels a little like... maybe not the best decision for me. And I also don't want to have 100 Hot, White Cum shirts sitting in my studio. That sounds terrible. So in regards to that, there are some safer bets. But I usually am pretty conservative in terms of how much I make, and then if I have to run it back... but then I do get salty about it, like, 'I don't want to do this anymore! I'm gonna do something else.' And then I rediscover it a year or two later, and I come back to it. But in terms of continuously making poor decisions... I think the worst thing is like, my mom sees my Instagram. So I know that my mom has to see - and it's not hidden. Because it's just, I remember this thing - and it's a really poor example, and it should maybe have made me reconsider - but I remember in an art history class, there was an interview with Jackson Pollock, and they were talking to him like, 'Oh, yeah, you showed up in jeans and a fucking denim shirt. What are you doing?' And he was just kind of like, 'This is me. Why would I dress differently for an opening? I want to be representative of who I am, I don't want to be somebody I'm not.' Which, who he was was a terrible person.

Miranda Metcalf  38:32

Yeah. Well, again, that's that - as I spoke about I think at the top of the hour - that feeling of the id driving, because part of that is because you're just like, "Cute, cute, cute... okay, some cum... okay, cute, cute, cute... okay, a dominatrix..." It just comes out in this very pure way, which is, I think, really charming. I mean it! Right.

Chris Estrada  38:32

And maybe I should have [seen] that and been like, 'Oh, okay, cool. So maybe don't be an asshole.' And instead, I took it as like, well, this is me. And if this means that I don't get to work with so-and-so because I made a zine called "Fluids Fanzine" that had a bunch of allusions to cum - which I knew, like, I was less than a tenth of the way through it, and I was like, 'Why am I doing this? This is such a bad idea. Nobody wants this.' But I just had to see it through, and... I don't know. It hasn't really ruined me yet. So maybe when it does, when I can't get a job because they're like, 'Oh, you put an ass on this. There's no way you're working here.' Then, maybe I'll have to reconsider. But right now, it feels like... I mean, I love cute stuff, but I also love freak shit. So I guess I'm trying to do both. Tell my mom that.

Miranda Metcalf  39:53

Yeah, tell your mom that a podcast host in Santa Fe thinks that the Hot, White Cum shirt is charming. Like, don't worry, Mom.

Chris Estrada  40:01

Yeah, she's... yeah, God.

Miranda Metcalf  40:03

But you know, I also think that the more public facing presences and profiles that don't shy away from that complexity and the multiples that every person holds, the less it becomes a barrier to entry in other spaces. Does that make sense?

Chris Estrada  40:26

It does!

Miranda Metcalf  40:27

So tell your mom, you're doing important work, I think. You're moving the needle on... admitting that no one is one thing, and no one can be one thing. And so having practices that reflect that, I think, is important. Yeah.

Chris Estrada  40:45

I think... let me be totally clear, and I think the worst part is, you would think that at some point, my family would feel like, 'Oh, come on!' But they're so - I just have my brother, my sister, and my mom - and they're all so supportive. So I make a Hot, White Cum shirt, and then my mom responds with like, a goofy smiley face emoji. So at some point, maybe it would be better if I was rebelling against them. But they're like, always on my team, which is great. But also, maybe I've had too much support. Maybe I need to be knocked down a peg or something. But I do, I recognize - I totally recognize the privilege that I have to be able to do the things that I do. Or maybe not totally recognize, but I try to be cognizant of the privilege that I have, as a man, to put that stuff out there. And I would... I'm definitely not a trailblazer. And it's not a form of activism. And it's not me trying to make the world a better place. And I would be lying if I said I did, but it is nice to just present yourself as you are. And again, maybe because I'm not financially dependent on that, I can... it's like, this is me, and fuck you if you don't like it. But yeah, hopefully that's beneficial to someone.

Miranda Metcalf  42:06

Yeah, I can only imagine the horrific DMs that a female-presenting person would get if they made a t-shirt that said that.

Chris Estrada  42:17

100%. And it's really, again, I don't think that I'm making the world a better place by doing it. But if there are any ripples that benefit the world, that's really cool. And maybe I should be more cognizant and try to work towards making things better for everybody.

Miranda Metcalf  42:38

Do you get any blowback in your DMs from people, you know, the more edgy work that's out there?

Chris Estrada  42:47

No... unfortunately, again, people are too - I think people are too on board!

Miranda Metcalf  42:53

The whole theme of this interview has been like, 'I need someone to be mean to me!'

Chris Estrada  42:57

You know what? I just think maybe, if people weren't - because like, in college, my critiques were pretty lackluster, but it was usually... it was probably tougher on my professors, because I was also in my late 20s, and I was doing school, but working a full time job and a part time job. And also, I was working for Speedball. And I was trying to do a ton of zines and shirts and this and that. So there [were] a lot of times of like, 'Maybe you should sit with this and think about it.' And [I was] like, 'No, I think I'm gonna do a big CMYK print of a sex shop... this is what I'm doing.' And in that regard, I do think there was some pushback in that world that definitely, I'm probably still not totally living up to it, but I am aware of it. But since just saying, 'Fuck it,' everybody's been really supportive. And that's good. But at some point, I'm sure somebody's gonna check me. But it is like, I think the funniest thing that I received was, I had a friend who - I think he just kind of reached his limit on selfies. And he was like, 'Dude, I can't. You've got a lot of shirtless pictures on here, man.' I was like, 'Yeah, dude, I don't know why you're still here. Like, you get to pick out - I mean, Instagram is great. You can mute it. If you want to mute my stories because you're tired of seeing my stupid face, I am not upset. I would have done it a long time ago if the role was reversed. So I mean, I'm totally aware of how wack I am. So in that regard, there's a little bit of like... I'm maybe sometimes self conscious of like, 'Oh, God... what am I doing?' But people are pretty supportive, which is nice.

Miranda Metcalf  42:57

Yeah. I mean, was that a conscious decision when you were building the shop, and building this idea, that you were going to be public facing in it? And also keeping in mind that the algorithm will show your work more if you show a photo of a person? Was that in there at all?

Chris Estrada  45:10

Well, so I did the separate art account. And then I was really lazy. And then I also realized, I hate having to follow - it doesn't require anything of me, but when there's somebody who has like, 'Oh, this is me, but this is also my art account, and then this is my other art account, and this is my interior design, and this is my...' I just can't, I can't keep up with it. Or maybe my brain is just too, like, steamrolling everything and rolling with it. So I had the separate art account that was just the posts of my stuff. And then I guess I just realized, it doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't matter. And I also like knowing who's making the work. And I don't think - I hope that that doesn't influence me to appreciate the work more, because it's totally not fair. And that's a bias that sucks. And maybe... I mean, I think if somebody saw me, maybe they would want to support my work less. Which would be... maybe I should consider that. But I don't know, it just is a little more personal that way. And I like being able to connect with artists in that regard. Like, it's nice to know, oh, a human made this. This is a human, and that human's fucking cool. And, I don't know, I like it.

Miranda Metcalf  46:26

Yeah.

Chris Estrada  46:27

So I guess it was a conscious decision. And also just being lazy.

Miranda Metcalf  46:30

Well, and I think it also works really well, because our little hairless two-legged ape brains love seeing other hairless two-legged apes. I mean, it's something that I think we connect with. And then also, as you say, puts the human who made this front and center. There's always something really interesting about that, I think. Because art gets divorced from its creator so often. I mean, you think about going to a gallery: it's all sterile, it's on the white walls, there's just a little artist statement. There's rarely a photo of the person who made it. And for people who consume art - I think maybe particularly people who consume art more casually - it seems like the work is just like... you just pluck it off of trees. Without the person who actually created it being there. Yeah.

Chris Estrada  47:26

I will say that - it doesn't make me appreciate their art more, but I want to see Mike Pennekamp pour a cup of coffee every single day.

Miranda Metcalf  47:36

Yeah!

Chris Estrada  47:36

I want to see Raj [Bunnag] skate every day. Like, anytime - I'm like, 'Oh, okay, I love your art, but also, damn! A three flip over the hip?' Like, of course I want to see that! So it is really... I don't know, maybe it tightens that community a little bit more. Just makes it a little more human.

Miranda Metcalf  47:56

Yeah. It's so funny you should mention Mike and the coffee, because I do look forward to that. I feel like I'm just having coffee with Mike every morning. Like, 'Oh, okay, Twin Peaks theme today! Cool!' You know? 'What are you listening to?'

Chris Estrada  48:12

I went to a Speedball thing in North Carolina. And we were all out there, and it was the demo artists, when they were setting that thing up. And that was when I first met a lot of those people. And the Speedball team was like, 'And Mike, we know you like to pour your coffee, so we got you a coffee mug! And here's your coffee!' And it was really sweet. And also like, hell yeah, I love that you're known for pouring a cup of coffee in the morning! So much so that this company would be like, 'Keep it going! We want to see it!' And it's great. And I'm here for it. I want to see it every day.

Miranda Metcalf  48:48

And I've also heard people talk about seeing people working, too. So like I said, I really adore the peek into the world outside of there, like the coffee or the skateboarding. But also just seeing in process, in studio, I've heard [of] that being really motivating. When it's like, 'Oh, shit! Chris is already up in the studio. I need to get in my studio!' And there's almost a mirroring that happens with the motivation to make, too, when you know that these internet friends are out there doing their good work.

Chris Estrada  49:20

I will say that this actually brings to mind the one - one of the best criticisms I've gotten is, I have a friend, Nolan, who constantly calls me out on the timelapse videos. So I'll get coffee at a shop, and he's like, 'Oh, what are you doing today?' And I'm like, 'I'm heading to my studio.' He's like, 'Oh, great! So a timelapse video.' Fuck, yeah, yeah. I gotta do it! And I guess -

Miranda Metcalf  49:44

I love them!

Chris Estrada  49:46

I love it too! I love seeing - but it is really funny to now be a little more aware of, like, am I going to [do a] timelapse video of me, I don't know, cleaning tiles? Or whatever weird thing I'm doing at work, or whatever I'm doing in my studio. And the answer is usually yes, because I'm an idiot, but it is - I do appreciate that the one thing I got called out on was process videos.

Miranda Metcalf  50:12

Yeah. I love them, though. I would watch a timelapse process video any day of the week, honestly. People carving, people printing. It's so satisfying. Mushrooms growing!

Chris Estrada  50:25

Oh, yeah!

Miranda Metcalf  50:25

That's my favorite. Mushrooms growing timelapse videos. They're so good.

Chris Estrada  50:28

Oh, it's crazy. Yeah, that blows my mind. Timelapse mushrooms and timelapse decomposition, plant decomposition stuff.

Miranda Metcalf  50:39

Oh, yeah decomposition videos! They're good.

Chris Estrada  50:41

Yeah, I have a hard time of staying focused on... like, I'm not a big YouTube person. But I think I could watch those endlessly. And get nothing done. Stay out of the studio all day, just like, 'Holy shit. Did you see that mushroom grow and then die and then grow again? How cool!'

Miranda Metcalf  51:00

Yeah. Well, Chris, I feel like... we're coming up to the the hour recording mark here, and I feel like I haven't heard any bad decisions yet!

Chris Estrada  51:10

I think it's all been bad decisions! I think it's been a little too... like, everything is just... I think one of the most interesting things that I took away from my very first semester in art class - and I've mentioned it before to some people - is I was, of course, trying to print some linocuts on shit paper because I didn't want to pay for BFK. And I was a little punk about it and being like, 'Who gives a shit? What does it matter?' And I the lesson that I got was, if you're not willing to invest in yourself, how could you expect anybody to invest in you? Or if you don't invest in your art, how can you expect anybody to invest in you? So in that same regard, I think... any time that I've tried to cut corners, or... I have a hard time of stopping the process once I've started. Especially when I'm printing. And it'll be a big 22 x 30 inch CMYK screenprint. And it's like, okay, cool... immediately the screen fucks up. And it's like, well, I'm invested. I got to push forward. And then I ended up wasting an insane amount of resources and time, and I'm frustrated, and I knew better. And it's like, 'God damnit! Why did I do that?' So... I guess sometimes I take lessons from that. And it's kind of like, 'Oh, right. Remember that time you wasted all that time and all that paper and you knew better, but you didn't listen to it? Maybe you could learn from that!' And I don't know if I ever apply those lessons. But I should!

Miranda Metcalf  52:45

I think about that a lot - in terms of having worked in commercial galleries for a long time, and gotten a lot of submissions from artists in all kinds of media - artists not taking the time to just photograph their work well is really, like, it just gives that sense that you don't value this. You're not taking it seriously. And I do understand that there's certain barriers to that, and certain accessibility - not everyone can pay for a professional photographer - but most people know someone with a decent iPhone camera. In this day and age. And some of it is just, they'll be blurry. Like, you didn't even just re-take that? You know?

Chris Estrada  53:28

Yeah, it takes me out of the moment. And it feels a little... again, it's like, I'm privileged to be able to frame my work before a show. And not everybody can, and not everybody cares. But I know that when I go see a show, and I think it's presented poorly, or it just feels like... when it's done with intention, and it's not... I think intention is pretty important in that realm. And again, I try to be cognizant of the privileges that I have, and not maybe apply everything I apply [to] myself to other people, but it is really one of those things where it's like, 'Well, if you don't care, what do I care?'

Miranda Metcalf  54:08

Yeah, totally. Totally. Well, Chris, is there anything that you've got on the horizon? Anything you're looking forward to? Any projects, or anything you want to talk about? I know it's always such an on-the-spot question for everyone.

Chris Estrada  54:23

Yeah. I have a bunch... well, I don't know. I have to finish a zine with Katie, who does "Dog Bites Back." And that's pretty cool. So I have maybe half of that done. So ideally, doing more zines, because they're so fun, and I love doing them, and it's cool to put them out there. And it's cool to torture myself, and screenprint every page, and then give them away and have [people] kind of be like, 'Oh wait, there's no words in this!' And have them thrown away, that's pretty cool. I will be in my studio where there's no AC today, screenprinting some t-shirts, probably.

Miranda Metcalf  54:57

Beautiful.

Chris Estrada  54:57

Yeah, I think the worst part is that I have nobody to blame but myself. Nobody's making me go! So then I'm there, and of course, I'm taking my shirt off. And it's awful. And I'm sure the people who also have studios in my building are like, 'Oh, great, this fuckin guy. This guy's back. Great.'

Miranda Metcalf  55:17

Shirt off guy.

Chris Estrada  55:18

Yeah, shirt off guy, great. Just can't be a normal dude. There are some art shows coming up, but I do not have all the details. Or, I guess I'm not sure if they're happening yet. I have a lot of fun stuff coming up.

Miranda Metcalf  55:32

Well, where can people follow you to get the fun stuff as it gets confirmed?

Chris Estrada  55:38

Oh, my God, just on Instagram. I took down my website at the height of the pandemic. I don't ever send out email blasts, which - I don't know, like, what am I going to say? 'Hey, there's a t-shirt. You might like it or you might not.' So Instagram, but I will say that you really got to suffer through selfies. You got to deal with titty pictures to get any information. So it is really, like, it's a battle. If you can get through that... maybe I should start sending out care packages and stuff, like, hey, you made it a whole year like, here's a coupon. I don't know how you did it. Just Instagram, @farewell.transmission. That's me.

Miranda Metcalf  56:17

I will definitely put that in the show notes. And I'm sure there'll be plenty of people willing to suffer through. I think it will be okay.

Chris Estrada  56:27

Thank you, Miranda. I really appreciate that.

Miranda Metcalf  56:30

Thank you, Chris. This has been really, really fun chatting, and talking about music and art and foxes and cum. It's just been, really, a delight.

Chris Estrada  56:39

Well, thank you for having me. I really love this. And thanks for also boiling down my whole vibe to... I mean, I think you covered it with music and cum and foxes. That's kind of it, that's me.

Miranda Metcalf  56:53

That's it. Yeah, you could do a t-shirt that's just the Farewell Transmission brand, that's just...

Chris Estrada  57:00

No! Oh, God, no! See, no, you need to stop - somebody needs to check me! If you hear this, and you think that's stupid, send me a message. Tell me it's wack. So that I can reconsider my choices, please.

Miranda Metcalf  57:12

Yeah, I think you've been very clear. You want some abusive DMs.

Chris Estrada  57:18

Hey, bully me. Please bully me. I'm ready.

Miranda Metcalf  57:21

Chris would like to be cyberbullied.

Chris Estrada  57:23

Yeah. If you're having a bad day, take it out on me.

Miranda Metcalf  57:29

I love it.

Chris Estrada  57:30

God.