episode fourteen | jenny Robinson

Published 15 May 2019

Miranda Metcalf  Hello print friends, and welcome to the 14th episode of Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend), the internet's number one printmaking podcast. I'm your host, Miranda Metcalf. I release an episode every two weeks, and on the off weeks, I publish an article on the Pine Copper Lime website, which features images and maybe a bit more information about the artist I'm going to interview. This week, on a very special episode of Pine Copper Lime, I chat with our grande dame of printmaking, Miss Jenny Robinson. I can't think of a single person who doesn't want to be a little bit more like Jenny. As you'll hear, she has straightforward confidence and humor, which is a goddamn delight to be around. I've been close with Jenny for about six years. We've traveled China together, gotten into all kinds of trouble after hours at SGCI together, and she's basically the reason I got married. But that's another story. She has an incredible story to tell about her life growing up in Borneo, animating Grace Jones videos in London for a while after art school before traveling around Southeast Asia and India solo, not to mention her recent relocation to Slovenia. Throughout it all, her printmaker pride pervades. Her love of ink and paper runs deep, and it's more than a bit contagious. But before I get to all of that, I promised you a big announcement this week. So here it is: I have launched a Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) online print gallery. Up on helloprintfriend.com, there's now a selection of prints for sale from incredible printmakers from Southeast Asia and Australia, starting at just $150. And for the next month, as a special thank you to all my wonderful PCL supporters, I'm offering you free shipping anywhere in the world with the offer code SHUN. That's right, as in the non believers. I'm really stoked about the selection of prints I've been able to offer through the amazing studios of Chiangmai Art on Paper, JOJO KOBE, and Cicada Press. I think it is well worth a look. And it is a great way to support printmakers around the world, and Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) too, of course. there's also some Pine Copper Lime merch you can get through the website. And not to mention, there's the Patreon as well. Or, what is amazingly amazing of you, is just tell some printmakers about this podcast or leave a review on your app of choice. So I know that's a lot of asks in a row, but to sum it up, Pine Copper Lime now has an online gallery that you can get free shipping with using the offer code SHUN, we have a Patreon with levels of thank yous starting at just $1 a month, and last but certainly not least, just telling people about the pod is one of the most important things you can do to help grow this community. As always, there will be a link in the show notes to all of that. Printmaking forever, shun the non believers, join the party. And without further ado, here's Jenny. Hi, Jenny. How's it going? 

Jenny Robinson  Hi, Miranda, lovely to talk to you. 

Miranda Metcalf  You too. Thanks for joining me. 

Jenny Robinson  It's been a while.

Miranda Metcalf  It has been, it has been.

Jenny Robinson  We've both moved countries since I saw you last. 

Miranda Metcalf  I know, no kidding. We went from being an hour flight, two hour flight away to other sides of the world. 

Jenny Robinson  Yeah, quite literally. 

Miranda Metcalf  We get to meet up here at Pine Copper Lime headquarters. Digitally.

Jenny Robinson  The best place to be. Change is good. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, for sure. So I know you from working with you at Davidson and showing your work there. And then, you were already represented there when I came on board, but I think that we ended up connecting and we've done some galavanting around together and in China and at different conferences.

Jenny Robinson  That's right. That's where we first really met, do you remember, I think we were on the same flight coming into Knoxville. I mean, we met in San Francisco. And then we were on the same flight coming into Knoxville, weren't we?

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, and that's when we actually got to really talk. And then you were at my wedding last year!

Jenny Robinson  I know, that was a great wedding, that was so much fun.

Miranda Metcalf  So yeah, so I feel like I know you pretty well and, you know, done international travel and had adventures in Wuhan train stations and everything. But I would love for you to introduce yourself to any listeners who don't know you, and just sort of talk about who you are how you identify as a printmaker, or an artist, and how you like to be seen.

Jenny Robinson  Okay, well, my name is Jenny Robinson, obviously. I'm originally from England, but I grew up in the Far East in Borneo. And I identify as a printmaker. I know, sort of a lot of times, people like to sort of open that up a little bit, but I mean, I am a printmaker to my very core. And I think it's important to identify as a printmaker if you are one, because I think printmaking is often seen as a - I hate to say this, but it's often seen as sort of the lesser of the big arts, like sculpture, even photography, I think, comes above printmaking these days. And I'm not ashamed of being a printmaker. I am a printmaker, and I love being a printmaker, you know, I sort of live and breathe ink. And so, for me, it's important to say that's what I am. It's like being an alcoholic, isn't it? I'm a printmaker.

Miranda Metcalf  That's right. Even if you're not currently practicing, you're still a printmaker, you know, even if you're in recovery.

Jenny Robinson  I still get to my meetings. Yeah. So I moved to America, God, nearly 20 years ago, actually, I've been living in America for 18 years. We moved, actually, we moved just a few months before 9/11. So that was thrilling. So that was a bit of a shock. But yeah, so we spent... my whole career really, my whole serious career. I mean, I had a career in England, but it was sort of up and down, because I had kids and you know, it's all sort of a bit of a mishmash. But everything really started to happen for me once I arrived in San Francisco, so I have very fond feelings for that area.

Miranda Metcalf  And that's where I knew you and I sort of knew you as an artist working in San Francisco at Kala.

Jenny Robinson  Kala had a lot to do with my development as an artist, I think, because you have artists from all over the world coming there. And you also have a big core of local artists in residence you work with. It's really a lovely place to be able to work, because not only do you get influences from all over the world from printmakers coming in, but you also have a very solid group of people that you see regularly and can exchange ideas with. And so I think it's a really important part of the Bay Area art. And you know, it has such amazing presses there and they do a lot for their artists. So yeah, I'm very fond of Kala. It's done a lot for me.

Miranda Metcalf  And this is sort of the second episode that we've had some Kala love. I don't know if you've heard the one with Keith Secola.

Jenny Robinson  Oh, yes, yes, I have. He's there at the moment, I think, isn't he?

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. So lots of love from Pine Copper Lime to Kala, it seems like, appropriately. Well, I would love to hear you talk a little bit more about your experiences growing up in Borneo. You know, being an expat and being in a different culture and how you look back on that now.

Jenny Robinson  Well, I mean, it was amazing. I think it's an amazing upbringing for any child to be... I mean, we had a pretty wild upbringing. You know, I've got two sisters and a brother, and they were all born in Borneo. And I was actually born on holiday in Portsmouth, England, which has always been a bit of a chip on my shoulder. I mean, why me? Why did I have to be born in Portsmouth? But yeah, no, it was a wonderful place to grow up as a child. I mean, we would just be running around with hardly any clothes on, playing with the local kids and sort of sitting in drains. And actually, to this day, monsoon rain is my favorite sound. Because of course, the monsoon is, I don't know if you've ever been in a monsoon rain, but they come down like golf balls. And the sound of it on a tin roof... Even now, if I want to go to sleep or something, I'll try and find a tape with golf balls hitting a tin roof, like the monsoon rain. Because for me, it's such a cozy sound. And I think just the colors of living on the equator and the rich greens and... it was just a very free childhood. And then that all came to a grinding halt when I was sent to boarding school. I wasn't even eight, actually, I was seven and three quarters. And you know, it was two days on a plane to get from Borneo back to England. And that was probably the biggest culture shock I've ever experienced. Because growing up with your mum and dad in the tropics, and then being sent back to cold, miserable England, it was a shock.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, were you sort of like, how aware of it were you by the time you were sent to live there?

Jenny Robinson  Oh, pretty aware.

Miranda Metcalf  Okay, so you were familiar with it?

Jenny Robinson  Yeah, my parents used to go back. I think in those days, my father got leave every two or three years. So we would go back on the boats. And I have a very clear memory of going back, you'd take a liner, a shipping liner, back to Britain. It would take about three weeks, stop in Singapore and Bombay, and go through the Suez Canal, back up to England. And that would be amazing, because they'd have parties on the boats for the children, and it's full of people going back to the UK. And then we would stay with my grandparents in Devon. So yeah, I do have pretty clear memories of that. But then, you know, there weren't really any good schools because we were in Sandakan, which is a logging town up in the north of Borneo. And so all the expats sent their children back to boarding school. So it was quite normal. But we were young. I mean, when I had my own children, and I looked at them when they were seven and eight, I thought, 'Oh, my God, I could never send them over to boarding school.' You know, but it was needs must. And I think some people coped well with that, and I think other people didn't. I know some of my siblings didn't cope particularly well with that. But I was alright, actually. I mean, I was always a very homebody. I loved my mom, and I loved my dad, and I loved being at home. But funnily enough, I kind of thrived at boarding school, I was fine. 

Miranda Metcalf  You know, with that context and that backdrop of the tropics and the culture and all of that, what were your early art influences? Do you think that has affected your practice? Or was art something that was talked about and upheld in high esteem in your house? Any other artists in the family? How did you sort of find your way to it with that childhood?

Jenny Robinson  No, I wouldn't say that my parents were interested in art. In fact, my father used to say to me, even when I was about 20, he used to say to me, 'If you can't draw a horse, you're not an artist.' And he would say, 'Can you draw a horse, Jenny? Can you draw a horse? Because if you can't draw a horse, you're not an artist.' I'm like, 'I can draw a bloody horse if I want! I just don't want.' I mean, you know, heathen. So yeah, I mean, my mum was always very supportive. And she, later on in life, she took up Chinese painting and stuff like that. So she has artistic tendencies. My father was an engineer, very practical. But he was also very inventive. But he didn't, he honestly didn't really have time for faffing around with art. And I think he thought that art was something that I would do before I got married, and then I'd be a nice little housewife because he came from that generation. So no, I think it's interesting, actually, you should ask that. Because when I went to boarding school, I sort of did a lot of drawing once I got to boarding school, because it was a way of grounding myself or anchoring myself in a new place. And I think when you sit and draw, you really take notice of what's around you. And you sort of invest in what's around you. And I think that was a way of coping with the change. I mean, we did have quite a disruptive childhood after that. My parents moved around, they got divorced, and my father went to Africa, my mother remarried and lived in Singapore. And we were sort of shuttled around everywhere. And I did find that drawing really helped, because it was a way of concentrating on something else, and sort of grounding yourself. And I think that's sort of where I started to... my art has always been about location and where I am and what's around me, everything I draw is from actual experience of seeing something. And I think that's probably where it all began, is just sort of that idea of grounding yourself in your surroundings. So I think that's really where I started developing an interest in art. And I won a little art prize when I was about eight and a half at school for drawing - what did I draw? I drew an acorn or something...

Miranda Metcalf  Was it a horse? 

Jenny Robinson  It was not a horse. It should have been a horse. I might have been taken more seriously in the family if I'd drawn a horse. No, it was a pine cone, actually, I drew a pine cone and I got this prize. And that really encouraged me, because I wasn't getting much encouragement elsewhere. So winning that prize, I always look back on that and I always think, that was a big deal for me to win that prize. Because I don't think I won anything else much, but I did win a prize for drawing a pine cone. So there you are, that's where it all started.

Miranda Metcalf  With one little pine cone.

Jenny Robinson  One little pine cone... a quite big pine cone, actually.

Miranda Metcalf  You've always worked big, then.

Jenny Robinson  I do like to work big. So, yeah, and then the nuns - it was a convent I went to, even though we weren't Catholics. My parents left it very late to find a school and we ended up in a convent. It was interesting because my parents are complete agnostics, atheists. So yeah, we had to go to Latin mass. I mean, that was this culture shock, that we got there from Borneo where we were running around with no clothes on in the rain, and then suddenly, we've got to wear black mantillas and go to an hour long Latin mass at six o'clock in the morning with incense and nuns. You know, they were wearing the full penguin outfits in those days.

Miranda Metcalf  I mean, I can't even imagine where you thought you must have been transported to. 

Jenny Robinson  It was weird. It certainly cured me of religion for the rest of my life. I mean, mumbo jumbo or what? That's my own personal opinion, of course.

Miranda Metcalf  Were you able to connect with the other girls at the school? Or were you like the naked heathen from Southeast Asia?

Jenny Robinson  Oh, no, we were all from other countries. We were all expat children, apart from some who came from London, and even some from Devon, which we found very bizarre. I mean, why would you send your child to boarding school when you lived 100 miles away? But a lot of us were people from... I don't know, from Fiji and from everywhere, Africa. So we all have a lot in common. I mean, you know, it was fine. We just got on with it, really.

Miranda Metcalf  This traveling lifestyle, it definitely has stayed with you. And you did some world traveling pretty much on your own, is that right? When you were in your 20s?

Jenny Robinson  Yes, after college, I got a job in London at an animation studio actually. And then I saved up. I was working in music videos. We did a Grace Jones video there. Yeah, and we worked on the first Highlander. This is all before anything digital, it was all hand drawn and hand painted. They used to call it "paint and trace." It was really boring. But a lot of good people in there, because they were all from art college just trying to earn some money. So I saved up, then I went traveling, and initially I went with my old boyfriend from college, my ex boyfriend. And he was not the easiest person to travel with, I will have to say. And so I broke up with him travel wise. I remember in Bombay railway station, I think, I said to him, 'You can get on any train you like, but not the train I'm getting on.' And that was it. And I went off traveling on my own after that. So I traveled for about a year on my own. And it was fantastic. I just had one of the best years of my life, it was just amazing. Just traveling around the world with a backpack, you know, and I went to Burma and China and India, spent three months in India, I think, Thailand - you know, all over the place. It was amazing.

Miranda Metcalf  And how was that time for you artistically? Were you drawing everything you were seeing? Were you able to connect with other artists?

Jenny Robinson  Well, there weren't many artists traveling, but I took a box of watercolor, Schmincke watercolor paints, and a couple of sketchbooks. And I sketched everywhere. And I think that was also, it trained me to put everything in a sketchbook. So you know, I've always kept sketchbooks. And the other thing, the thing I love about drawing and sketching when you're traveling, is that it sort of really involves you in the place that you're in. So you know, I can look at some of my sketchbooks now from when I was traveling in my 20s. And I can remember 100% almost where I was sitting, how many children I had around me, because you know, children come from everywhere when you sit down still for a second in India. And you can just - it's a visual diary. It really takes you back, like music, it takes you back to that moment in time where you can almost remember exactly what you were doing when you did that sketch. And I think that's because when you draw like that, you're really concentrating on the images around you, and it's quite an intense hour or half hour or whatever it is you're spending there. And you don't often sit still in a place like that for half an hour. You know, when you're traveling, you're moving around a lot. And so I think that really trained me in the importance of drawing and keeping a visual sketchbook of things that catch your eye and that you're interested in. So yeah, I did. I drew all around the world. It was lovely. And it gives you something else to do other than just sort of wander around eating pancakes or curries or whatever it is you're eating that day and sort of, it gives you a purpose as well, while you're traveling. And you know, the architecture in India is so beautiful, and the light, I did a lot of watercolors of the way light affects architecture and buildings and patterns. So I think all that was very much part of training myself in a way. It was an extension of my training in how to look at things and what to leave out in a drawing and what to put in in a drawing. And I also think watercolor, you know, I did a lot of watercolors after I came back from traveling, because I couldn't get access to a print shop. And so the way that I used watercolors led into the way that I make monotypes and make my prints, because it's pretty much the same system and same approach that I take when I make a print as when I make a watercolor. I think I was probably quite a late developer in terms of my career starting, but I always worked and I always had shows and exhibitions. But it was only when I returned to printmaking a bit later, when I got back from my travels, that I really began to get seriously back involved in what I really wanted to do. The watercolors and the drawings just led up to that point where I got back into printmaking, because I did my degree in printmaking. And then after I left college, I really didn't have access to printmaking for a while. So I just see it all as leading up to wherever you end up. And even now, everything that I do leads to something else that I do, but I think it's just a lifetime of training yourself and working, and you just have to work and work.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, that's definitely a good segue into my next question, which is, how did you come to printmaking? You said you majored in it. And then, like a lot of printmakers, had that experience of, okay, I'm gone, where's my studio? Where's my press? What do I do now? How did you end up coming back to it and having it really take over your art practice?

Jenny Robinson  I think printmaking is one of those things that people completely fall in love with when they take their first printmaking class, or they just haven't got the patience for it. But that happened to me when I went to art college. And actually, incidentally, it was funny, the nuns told my parents not to let me go to art college because art colleges were dens of sin and vice. Well, I'm like, 'Oh, that sounds good. I'm going.' And so I went to art college, where I suppose I was supposed to learn to draw horse. So in England when you do a foundation course, basically, you do everything. You do ceramics, you do a bit of sculpture, you do this, that, and the other. And when I took my printmaking section, which was in the second semester, I just completely fell in love with it. I was like, 'Oh, this is what I'm supposed to be doing.' And so then I applied for a degree and then I did my degree, because in those days in England there weren't that many solely printmaking degrees. So I ended up staying in a smallish college outside London. And I did my degree there. And then when I left, like you say, it was hard to get access to printmaking. So I got a job in animation in Soho in London, and that was great. I earned quite a lot of money. Then I went traveling, and then I came back and I couldn't stand being in England. So I went traveling again. And then I came back, and it was around that point where I really wanted to get back to work. And actually, after I left college, I shared a studio opposite the British Museum with some college friends of mine. And one of the lovely things about the British Museum, and this is also something we did when I was at college, was they have a printmaking study room where you can contact them and they'll let you come in and see any prints that you want. And they have got a massive selection of prints in the V&A and in the British Museum. But I remember when I was at college, we used to do that, we would go up there and the tutor would pick out prints for us to look at. And one of the group of prints that we looked at was the Rembrandt Three Crosses, the ones where he changes the way he wipes it and adds to it and just creates - almost like monoprints, and they have five or six of those in the British Museum. And I remember when I saw those, it was almost a turning point because when you learn traditional printmaking, especially back when I did my degree, you'll learn to do it traditionally and properly, which I think is really important. But you're supposed to make, you know, 20 prints identical and do an edition, which is the traditional way of making prints. And I really never had patience for that. I always wanted to try new things and cut up my plates or whatever. And when I saw those Rembrandts I was like, 'Well, if Rembrandt could do it,' you know. If he can just make five prints that are completely different. So that was a lovely thing to be able to see as well, that even back centuries ago, people were experimenting like that. Because I honestly think experimentation is the future for printmaking. And of course, that's what it is now, printmaking is everything and anything. Then I bought my own press, that's right, after the boys were born. And that's when I started working in dry point more, because I didn't want any toxic materials around. And so I bought a little press, a Rollaco press, from a guy north of England who makes these amazing little presses. And so then I started printmaking in my studio again, I bought this little press, and I started doing dry points. And that's really when I completely fell in love with printmaking again, and then I've never looked back since then. And then you know, when I moved to the States, I went to Kala. And they had that huge press at Kala, which also opened up a whole new chapter of my work because I was able to work at the scale, finally, that I really wanted to. So it's all these little things that happen to you in life where, you know, I bought my little press, and I started printmaking again, and then we moved to America, and I had access to a massive press, a bigger press than I'd ever seen before. And that enabled me to then really take off and do what I really wanted to do, which was to create these large prints.

Miranda Metcalf  This does seem like a perfect time to move into talking specifically about your work. And, there's definitely, of course, two - more than two sides to it, but - there's the technical aspect of it, that you've really got a technique that you've really developed yourself and of course, you're invited to do workshops on at SGCI, and that sort of thing. But then also there's the imagery and the scale and all of that as well, and then the aesthetic side of it. So I'm sure that people would love to hear about both. Do you want to maybe describe, a little bit, the Jenny Robinson method?

Jenny Robinson  So when I bought my little press in England, I went down, there's a really great shop in London called Intaglio Printmakers. They're like a little Dickensian shop in South London. And I was in there sort of just looking, drooling over all the printmaking stuff. And they were selling these paper plates for dry point. So I bought a couple of them. And so that's really when I started drawing on drypoint plates, because it's very fast, I guess it sort of was like an extension of a sketchbook, you didn't have to worry about the cost. And they work well for two or three prints. But they were a little rough around the edges, I felt. So I did that for a while. And then when I moved to the States, I was teaching for a little bit. And I was pretty shocked at how expensive it was for students. Because they had to buy their own copper. And the cost of just a printmaking course, or the cost of university, it was so high. Because of course, I had a completely free education. And we were given most of our plates by the college. So it was a shock to see how much more expensive an education in America was, from what I had had. At that time, I was working at Kala, and I was developing ways of making really big plates, but without using metal, without investing all that money in copper and stuff. So I just did a lot of experimentation of how to do these paper plates, but make them a little bit more durable than the ones I used in the UK. So I just tried a bunch of different materials. And I eventually landed on illustration board and wood varnish, which worked amazingly well. In some ways, I was trying to save the students money by giving them something that wasn't intimidating to them in terms of cost, and would allow them to work much larger if they wanted to, and much quicker. And also to allow myself to work much larger for a much cheaper approach because you know, I'm only getting five or six prints out of each plate. And at that time, I could get hold of 60 x 14 pieces of cardboard, which worked really well. And then later on, they changed the makeup and we're using much cheaper materials, so it stopped working. And that was around the time when I started working a bit more on aluminum and stuff. But it's a great thing to teach beginning printmaking on, as well as doing more intricate prints, because it's just so accessible. And you can make a 60 x 40 plate in two or three days, where, can you imagine how long that would take you with an etching? It would take you months, literally. And I do think that experimentation and breaking those traditional ideas of printmaking is kind of the way forward for printmaking, and I think we've seen that in the last 10 years. With all the innovations that young printmakers are coming up with. Installation printing and all sorts of things. I mean, I think printmaking is such an exciting area of the arts at the moment. There's so much going on with works on paper. So that's really how I started working like that. And then, I took a course with Paul Maloney when I was doing these really big prints. And I started working on gampi. And I didn't really know what to do with the gampi paper. So Paul, we did this workshop with Paul. And he showed me how to back gampi paper, and - big size, too - and also how to seam prints together. And that workshop was such a eye opener for me. And again, it changed the way that I worked. I mean, I hardly work on Western paper at all now, because it just opened up this whole new way of making prints. And that's really when I started getting into joining prints together and playing with symmetry and mirror images and tessellation, which also reflects the way that prints are actually made. I mean, when you pull a print, you have that perfect symmetry as the paper comes off the plate. And I love the idea that you're playing with that whole idea of repetition, mirror images, and all that stuff.

Miranda Metcalf  So what was it about the gampi? You sort of say that it definitely changed things for you. I'd love to hear you talk more about that.

Jenny Robinson  Let me see, how did I first get into gampi? So I think that was another thing about being in a communal print shop, is that you witnessed everybody working in different ways. And I was part of a crit group. And so we all talk about paper and paper choices. And some of us were making artists books on different kinds of Japanese paper. And then I just got this yearn to make one of my really big prints, a 60 x 40 print, on a really thin paper. And some people at Kala had the gampi, and I was looking at it. So I bought a big roll of it. And what really drew me to it when I did my first print on gampi was the counterbalance, in a way, between this beautiful, fragile, weightless paper, which is so strong, actually, you don't think it's going to be strong, but it's really strong, but it's also really fragile. And that really played into my subject matter, which is about the transience and impermanence of the urban environment. And so I love the idea of having these weighty images on this really delicate paper, which is also strong. So the environment is fragile, but looks strong, and the paper is strong, but looks fragile. And so I really like that counterbalance between those two, the image and the paper. So that's really where gampi started to be really an important choice for my work, because it does play into that whole environmental idea that we have to look after our environment, our urban environments as well, and that they are much more fragile than they seem. Using a paper that reflects that, I think, is very important to the work as well, to get that idea across.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, this is a good place to talk about the actual specific imagery that you're using, which, when I first came to know you and your work, it was these very large scale prints of older buildings, silos, airplanes, really monolithic structures that were in decay. And now your work, just in the last few years, has taken this turn where you're starting to literally deconstruct the images as well, and doing a printing that, as you say, kind of mirrors that experience of the actual pulling off the plate but can go several directions, but still has that really structural, strong quality, that it's these skeletons now of what you were making before.

Jenny Robinson  Yeah, that's a very good summary of what it is. Because the other thing I feel like is, you have to keep pushing your ideas within your own practice. So 10 years ago, I was doing those very big, like you say, decaying structures, because those were the things that I was driving past every day on my way to my studio. And those are the things that really grabbed my interest, is maybe a structure on its own with that pattern of age and the corrosion that you get from the environment on a structure. So I was really interested in all of that, and also the way the light falls on it. You know, things look so different in the evening from in the morning. You might not even notice something in the morning, but you'll see it in the evening when the light hits it in a different way. And things like the billboards, you know, I would be driving past all these billboards on my way across the Bay Bridge and coming back, and the way the light hits them at certain times of the day, and the fact that they're such an iconic part of the American landscape, also really interested me, but not what was on the front, obviously, because that's really banal in so many ways. But you know, what was holding this up? What the holds up that idea of the American dream? And then that led into the building boom that's been going on all around the world, and especially in San Francisco and London and Sydney, places like that. And you know, what really was catching my eye then was these skeletal structures that are going up or coming down. And it's that idea that you really don't know what state these things are in, because of the constant change, that impermanence. So then I started working in a more linear way, I think, and I was experimenting more with collaging a few bits and pieces, and then tessellating these images. And so that's really what I'm interested in now, and also sort of doing these repeat images. Because that's another thing with gampi is that you can read it from the back as well as the front. And then when I realized that, you know, put a little burnt plate oil in there or whatever. And then you've got this complete mirror image that you can join together. You can take images that are rooted in observation and drawing again, and then you can change them and create something that's based on that reality, but it takes on a more ambiguous shape, if you like. It's recognizable, but it's not quite what you think it is. And I'm just really enjoying that idea of being a little bit more abstract with my work and sort of just taking it where it goes and sort of playing on those ideas of symmetry, tessellation, repetition, all the things that are involved in the printmaking process itself.

Miranda Metcalf  And where do you think that kind of impulse came from, to start to really deconstruct the images and really move to, in some cases, almost complete abstraction?

Jenny Robinson  Again, I think it was from observation, and I started to simplify my drawings a bit more. And I think actually, a lot of it stems back to - I went down the peninsula in San Francisco, there's this huge airship building, hangar one, down at Moffett Airfield, and Google recently - well, not recently now, but about 10 years ago - had leased it, and they had taken off the skin. So it was just sitting in this field off the freeway, like this massive dinosaur, like a skeleton. And I went down there and did some drawing and took some photographs. And then I did a whole body of work that just came off of that. So my first print of that was a literal dry point, which was about 24 x 27, or something, and I kind of just thought of that as a study. So I did a dry point of that. And then I realized that if I sort of printed it on gampi, and I moved it around and sort of put pieces together, I could create this different architectural monolith, if you like, that was based from that, but that had its own entity, that had its own character. And that sort of then led to a whole bunch of work that was more in keeping with that, was just taking parts or details of a building and then creating my own constructs, if you like, using symmetry and recognition. And I like that idea that people look at it, and they recognize it, but they don't know where from. But they also appreciate that it's it's own architectural shape now. And I think it comes from this idea of not wanting to stand still and do what you're comfortable with. I reached a point with the other prints where I just felt really comfortable with them, and I knew I could do them. And I wanted to try something else, you know, I wanted to push myself a bit more and try something different. And I think that's always scary when you're an artist because if you're selling your work, it's a bit of a leap of faith to then sort of change it a little bit. Because we all, I rely on selling my work to make my living. So to change it is a bit scary. But then you think, well, you know, you don't want to be doing the same thing day after day. You want to try new things and see if they work for you. And after all, I do my work for myself, I don't do it for other people. I've been lucky in the fact that people like my work and will buy it. But at the end of the day, it's really what I want to do with my work that keeps me going. Otherwise, why bother, honestly, if you're just doing it to sell it? 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, I can see that. It's sort of like, if you're not interested in your work, and you're just producing it because it's what sells, it's like you may as well be doing anything. 

Jenny Robinson  You know, you might as well paint a bunch of flowers or something, which, of course, is what people expect from women artists, anyway.

Miranda Metcalf  Flowers and horses.

Jenny Robinson  Flowers and horses, yeah. Unicorns. I mean, honestly, Miranda, I can't tell you how many men, usually, have come into my studio and asked me where the artist is, even though I'm the only person in the room and my name is above the door. And they'll come in and they'll say, 'Oh, where's the artist?' And you go, 'Oh, well, actually, I'm the artist.' And they go, 'No, no, no, this work looks like it's been done by a man!'

Miranda Metcalf  Terrible.

Jenny Robinson  I know! And then there are times when Stuart might be in the room with me, my husband, and they'll talk to him. And they'll say, 'Oh, is this your work?' And he'll say, 'No, it's my wife's.' But then they'll talk to him. They'll say, 'Oh, how many pounds per inch does this press, blah blah?' I'm like, oh, my God. I mean, I think that's the thing - until more recently, anyway, I don't think the art world expects women to do work that's more structural or architectural. I think we're still fighting against that image of what women are interested in or what women should be doing.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, I remember you telling me that about the open studios that you would have in San Francisco. And it just seems completely inconceivable that it is inconceivable to them that a woman can be making large, strong, structural work.

Jenny Robinson  I know. I mean, it's getting less, I'm glad to say it sort of becomes less and people are a little bit more aware. I think that it's a stupid thing to say.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, now they can just think it. But yeah, as we sort of touched on before, you're actually not in San Francisco anymore. You're in Slovenia at the moment, correct?

Jenny Robinson  Yes, that's right. We moved over here for two years. In November. I can't believe we've been here four and a half months already. But yeah, we chose Slovenia. Berlin would have been amazing, but we couldn't swing it. We could have moved to Paris. But we wanted to be in this part of world. And I have to say, it is a lovely part of the world to be in. It's a wonderful part of Europe. We're very lucky, because we're close to a lot of beautiful European cities. I mean, for instance, I went to Venice for the day the other day. And we've been to Milan, and this weekend, we're going back to Vienna, where we were a few weeks ago. And so it's a lovely place to spend two years.

Miranda Metcalf  Well, definitely. And while you're there, you must have access to the museums, of course, of Europe, and going there and getting to see that must be super enriching for any artistic practice.

Jenny Robinson  It is, and it's nice to have the choice of museums that you want. In fact, it's funny that you should mention that, because I read on Hyperallergic that there was an Egon Schiele centenary exhibition on at the Leopold Museum in Vienna. So we went to see that, and it was called Egon Schiele Reloaded, and it was like the centennial of his birth or death or something. And so we went in, we paid our 10 euros, and we got the information. So basically, it was putting modern art with Egon Schiele's work.

Miranda Metcalf  Oh, that is a great idea.

Jenny Robinson  Yeah, and it was a really interesting exhibition. Until we got into a room where they started to show his watercolors, which I was very excited about seeing, and his prints of course. So I was looking at this first drawing, watercolor drawing. And you know, the beautiful thing about watercolor drawings is the texture of the paper and the mark of the charcoal, you can see it.

Miranda Metcalf  You can see the way the water has really seeped in, and different layers in the paper. Yeah.

Jenny Robinson  Yeah. And I'm looking at it, and I'm thinking, whoa, what's this? And it was just really flat, on very flat paper, and it said "facsimile" on the edge of it. And I'm like, 'What?' And I thought, well, maybe they couldn't, because the Leopold actually has this huge collection of his drawings. I mean, they have one of the biggest collections, I think, of his work. And this is a big exhibition. I think it's traveled all over the place. And then I looked at the next drawing, and it was the same. And I realized that every single drawing and work, every single piece of the works on paper in that show, was basically a photocopy. And it wasn't even a very good photocopy. I mean, it was basically, they'd taken a photo of it, and it was all framed up beautifully and stuff. But the quality was just awful. You know, it was on this slightly off-white paper. And it was really, really disappointing, and it really got my blood boiling actually. Because I thought, this is a ripoff, I could have gone into the bookshop and I probably would have seen better reproductions. And even the etchings were facsimiles as well. 

Miranda Metcalf  That would be so - that would be heartbreaking. Like, if I had the opportunity where I thought I was going to go see his etchings and they turned out to be reproductions, I would be devastated.

Jenny Robinson  I know, and what's the point? I mean, the thing with etchings, too, is you get the embossment on the paper and you get the ink sitting on the paper. And they were not - so actually, I started bitching away to my husband about it. And I said, 'I'm gonna say something about this, because you know, this cost us 10 euros to get in!' Anyway, so when we left, I went up to the desk and I said, 'Could you tell me why all the works on paper are reproductions?' And she said - and actually, the woman got very defensive right off the bat - and she she said, 'Well, they're very good reproductions.' And I said, 'Well, well, not really.' She said, 'No, they're very, very good reproductions and most people can't tell the difference.' And I said, 'Yeah, but they're reproductions, and they're all framed up and stuff.' And she was just saying, 'Oh, well, you know,' she said, 'you do realize that works on paper very fragile.' And I said, 'Yes.' And she said, 'Well, we can't just take them out for any exhibition.' But this is like this big exhibition. And I said, 'But, you know, you can put museum glass on them, and you can lower the lighting and stuff.' And she said, 'Well, no, we're just not going to take the works out and just show them because they'll get damaged and stuff.' And I thought, well bloody hell! That's just not on. It's just very uncool to have a museum of that standing showing works that are poor reproductions, when they have the actual original works on paper in their archives. I just don't get it. What's the point?

Miranda Metcalf  And what I find so disturbing about it, despite the personal disappointment that people who know what they're looking at must be experiencing, is for the people who don't know what they're looking at. How are they ever going to fall in love with works on paper if they are being spoon fed reproductions and being told that it's the same experience? Because of course, it's very much not! 

Jenny Robinson  It's like a McDonald's versus a Michelin star restaurant. I mean, it's just, I don't know, I just don't understand it. And I think it plays into that whole dumbing down of works on paper. They're not as important. You know, you don't have to see the real thing. Who needs to see your work on paper when you've got a painting next to it? You know? Oh, it gets my blood boiling, Miranda, it gets my blood boiling.

Miranda Metcalf  Because yeah, they're just treated in this way, almost like, well, people aren't really going to look closely enough at them anyway. 

Jenny Robinson  Yeah, because they're "just" works on paper.

Miranda Metcalf  People aren't gonna know the difference, this sort of thing.

Jenny Robinson  And that's true, in a way, because I pointed it out to my husband. He's not an artist, he's an engineer. And I pointed it out to him, and he said, 'Oh, you know, I wouldn't really have noticed that unless you pointed it out, but now that you point it out, I can see that that's not good. Doesn't look good.'

Miranda Metcalf  And people can, even if they don't have that eye of having been around paper so much, once you point it out, anyone can see it. And anyone can see that it is a photocopy that's not fulfilling that aesthetic, lovely, burning heart of love, I guess, that you can get for paper.

Jenny Robinson  Honestly, I was in the V&A a few weeks ago, when I was in London. We were in this dark corridor, and they had these original Beatrix Potter drawings for Peter Rabbit. And they were the originals. And honestly, Miranda, you could look at them and they were just so beautiful, the paper, and the delicate watercolors. I mean, the difference was chalk and cheese. And you know, they were just up in a dark corridor in the V&A. They weren't being overly precious about it. Obviously, they had the lights down, but that's the difference between a big museum showing really not very good reproductions on flat pieces of paper and the real thing. So that is something that really gets me a bit irate, when I see things like that. I think my poor husband had to put up with me wittering on about it all through dinner. And the more I drank, the more I got irate.

Miranda Metcalf  Of course! When I was traveling in Northern Europe years ago, I took a special trip to Vienna to see Durer's hare watercolor, because I knew that the Albertina had it. And I was so excited to go see it, and we got the museum later than we were hoping to, and it seemed like it was going to close. And so I asked the guard, where can I see the Durer watercolors, and ran upstairs to the third floor and found them. And they were reproductions.  Again. And I was so heartbroken. Because we hadn't even planned on coming to Vienna at all. But I asked my friend who I was traveling with, 'Can we go and do this? I've just always wanted to see these, we're so close. Let's just do it.' Because we were just in Germany at the time. And looking back, it's like, okay, yeah, I can see why they may not have a watercolor on display. Because where it had been stationed was getting direct sunlight from an open window.

Jenny Robinson  Again! But that's a stupid place to put anything anyway!

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, just don't put it there! Put it somewhere, like you say, it's like a little darker corridor, put it under the museum glass, and let people have that experience that they've traveled for, that they've paid for, that they've been looking for. That sort of release and satisfaction and love that you feel when you do see a truly beautiful work on paper in person, there's nothing else like it.

Jenny Robinson  I know. And it just seems counterproductive to - you know, send people to the bookshop if you're going to do that, because the reproductions in a good book are probably better anyway. But yeah, it just seems very weird that that's the way they treat works on paper in these massive museums. I mean, especially when they have the originals in their vaults. Have they not heard of special lighting in museums and museum glass? Have they not heard of these things?

Miranda Metcalf  It's sort of like, you know this is your job, right?

Jenny Robinson  Yeah! You can show these things, by the way. Stop putting them in sunlight and get a grip. 

Miranda Metcalf  How disappointing. 

Jenny Robinson  I know. So it does make you wonder, really, what's going on when they do that.

Miranda Metcalf  It's why we need podcasts about printmaking, so people can know the truth.

Jenny Robinson  Yes, yes. And by the way, Miranda, at this point, I do want to say thank you to you for setting this up. Because I think it's so important to have a podcast about printmakers, for printmakers. And hopefully some of the general public will jump on board too and learn a thing or two, and learn how important works on paper are.

Miranda Metcalf  Well, thank you. Yeah, I do have a bit of a dream that I might convince just some podcast browsing people to jump on board as well and hear all the interesting things that we're doing and get a sense of the great community that we have, and maybe inspire them to take up something.

Jenny Robinson  And maybe some painters might learn a thing or two, were they to listen. I mean, no pressure painters, no pressure.

Miranda Metcalf  No pressure, painters. I was about to say, I mean, I'm not holding my breath for painters, but... 

Jenny Robinson  Yeah, there's a whole world of works on paper out there, painters! 

Miranda Metcalf  Yep, we're thriving. So speaking of thriving, what's on the horizon for you? You've got your new continent, you've got a press that you're going to be working with now, and what are you looking forward to?

Jenny Robinson  Well, we're gonna be here for two years, and then my long term plan... As you know, I may have told you this before Miranda, but I do want to drop dead at my press, when the time comes. Not too soon. But obviously, in my dotage, that's the way I want to go. And so we're thinking of setting up an artist residency. You know, obviously, we don't have the details yet. We haven't even decided on the country where we will do it. But it is - we went to a beer garden the other day and had a long talk about it. And we've definitely decided to do it. So it's just a case of where. It'll be soon, I think. It'll probably be within three years, we'll start to look to set it up. And I think the main draw that I'm interested in for this particular residency is, I think we want to buy a really big press. And that will be the focus of the residency, to enable people, because not every place has got a big press. And so I think that will be our main focus, is to have access to a really large press so that people can work on a large scale. Yes, it's very exciting. So we just have to decide where. So I think that's what we're gonna do.

Miranda Metcalf  Well, I think that that is a lovely place to finish up. Where can people find out more about you? Where can they see your work and follow you and all your adventures?

Jenny Robinson  I'm on Instagram under @jennyrobinsonprint, and I have a website, jennyrobinson.com. And that's pretty much where you'll find most of my information.

Miranda Metcalf  Great. Well, I will put links to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure to chat and catch up a bit, but then also learn things about you I didn't even know after years of friendship. 

Jenny Robinson  Thanks very much for inviting me, and I really, really enjoyed it. 

Miranda Metcalf  Oh good, I can't wait to talk more. All right. Thank you. 

Jenny Robinson  Alright. Thanks, Miranda. Bye. 

Miranda Metcalf  Well, that's our show for this week. Join me again in two weeks' time, when my guest will be Aaron Coleman. We talk about his early art influences of hip hop culture growing up outside of Chicago and how the sampling of music and imagery present affects his current practice, as well as art making as a political act and the often unseen labor done by black and brown people in academia. This episode, like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing help by Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Webber. I'll see you in two weeks.