episode nine | shayla alarie

Published 6 mar 2019

Miranda Metcalf  Hello print friends, and welcome to the ninth episode of Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend), the internet's number one printmaking podcast. I'm your host, Miranda Metcalf. I release an episode every two weeks, and on the off weeks, I publish an article on the Pine Copper Lime website featuring images and maybe a bit more information about the artist I'm going to interview. If you want to get in touch, Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) can be found on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and helloprintfriend.com. And this episode is publishing on the first day of the SGCI conference in Dallas. So if you're there, please come on down to the vendor fair and say howdy. I'm going to be keeping this week's intro short and sweet so we can get right to the good stuff, and this episode is chock full of it. My guest is Shayla Alarie, who is a gallerist, curator, and arts educator who I worked with for five years at a gallery in Seattle, which housed 17,000 antique, modern, and contemporary prints. Shayla offers us an incredibly comprehensive account of the commercial side of the print world, as well as some juicy anecdotes about life as a print gallerist. At the very end, she answers some great questions I got from listeners via Instagram, so I'm just gonna let her take it away. But don't forget to subscribe to Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) as not to miss my next episode, where I chat with Ali Norman. What? Yes, the Ali Norman, about her printmaking practice, life in the deep south, and moon magic. So without further ado, here's Shayla. Hi, Shayla, how's it going? 

Shayla Alarie  Hi, I'm doing great. How are you? 

Miranda Metcalf  I'm really good. It's good to hear your voice. 

Shayla Alarie  I was just about to say the same thing. Yeah, it's been too long. 

Miranda Metcalf  It definitely has. So Shayla, probably of all the guests that I've had, you are the one that I know the best. We used to spend, I would say at least 50 hours a week together.

Shayla Alarie  At least.

Miranda Metcalf  And twice on Sunday. Because we worked together at Davidson Galleries for about five years. And so I was doing the contemporary department and you were the director of our antique and modern department. That means that this episode is going to be a little different than what we've done in the past in that, as opposed to chatting with a contemporary artist or chatting about a printmaking studio, we're actually going to be talking about the wonder of the secondary market for printmaking. But before we kind of dive into that, I'd love to invite you to introduce yourself for people who don't know you, and maybe tell us a little bit about your background and your training and all that good stuff. 

Shayla Alarie  Sure, yeah, my background is in both studio art and art history. So I started out as an artist, making art myself, got my bachelor's degree in both, actually, and decided to go on for my graduate work in art history. That's what brought me to Seattle, and I got my master's degree in art history at the University of Washington. And I had originally intended to go on for my PhD, but at that point in time, really hadn't committed to academia. I thought I was going to, and it was during that time that the position came open at Davidson Galleries. They were looking for someone who had a master's degree in art history to head up the antique and modern department. And so that's what landed me there. So it's like, right place right time, right resume. So at Davidson Galleries, in my capacity there, I managed, how did you used to put it? The other...

Miranda Metcalf  The other 500 years of printmaking history.

Shayla Alarie  Yeah, as opposed to the contemporary department, where you dealt with, you know, the artists living and working today. Yeah, I had the other 500 years of art history. And so I dealt with, you know, everybody from Durer and Rembrandt to MC Escher and Picasso. And it was really quite wonderful. Some of my particular specialties while at Davidson were Goya and the artist of my heart, Kathe Kollwitz. And so I managed not only sales and inventory, but I did research and authentication for Davidson Galleries sometimes, with prints. Work would come in that we would need to authenticate and even works that came in from a credible source, we would authenticate as well, at Davidson. So a lot of research went into my position there in making sure that we had authentic pieces.

Miranda Metcalf  So why should contemporary artists care about the secondary market? How do you think it affects what they do in the big picture? And why do you think it's important that they're aware of it and aware of how it works? 

Shayla Alarie  Yeah, so with contemporary artists, in particular, the secondary market is tricky. For contemporary works, wherein the artist is still living, the intuitive places to resell their work are galleries that represent them, because they're the ones that already have the clientele for the work. But very often, galleries that are showing those particular artists aren't going to want to show older works, they want to focus on new works by the artist for two reasons: because it keeps it fresh, you know, it keeps the artwork moving, shows a progression in their output, but also, when you are selling secondary work, the money - in some cases, and in a lot of cases in the US, so I'll put a pin in that to go back to it - so in a lot of cases in the US, when work by a contemporary artist is sold on the secondary market, the person consigning it is the one that gets the profit. So the gallery and the consigners split the money, and the artist gets nothing. Now that is changing, I know that the rules are different in California in particular, and in Europe. There are a lot of guidelines in place in which even work sold in the secondary market, if the artist is still living or if their estate has claim, then they're entitled to a portion of the of the proceeds. But there are some gallerists, one of the ones that I worked for, in particular, over at Foster/White, you know, where they're cognizant of that. If they sell work by artists that they currently represent, they willingly give some of the percentage to the artists. So, you know, so there are some galleries out there who are aware of that, but that is something to be aware of if you're a contemporary artist, especially in the United States, if your gallery is going to be selling some of your work on the secondary market, whether or not you get a percentage of that. But usually, again, it takes a while to get to that point. It takes many, many years of selling on the primary market before you're going to start seeing work on the secondary market.

Miranda Metcalf  So when it comes to collectors, obviously, as you know and I know, because this was the advice we would give day in and day out, buy the work because you love it. Buy the work because you love it, don't buy it because you're expecting to see a return. Buy it because you think the work is worth it and you know it's going to bring a value into your life. That being said, of course, we know some collectors will always ignore that, or will be inclined to ignore that, maybe that's a more gentle way to put that. So the idea that they can resell the work, do you think that that can be a motivating factor for purchasing work initially from contemporary artists?

Shayla Alarie  Absolutely, I think for some collectors that is a driving force. And the reason for that is primarily because of the shifting perceptions of the art market. So a little bit of background: it began really in the 1940s. So during World War Two, the US became really the epicenter of the art world because so many artists fled Europe and came to New York. And that is what prompted it to become such a prominent venue for the arts and a landmark place for gauging what is happening in the contemporary art world. So moving forward, then, into the 1970s and 1980s, then what we're seeing is the art market and the art world becoming increasingly conflated. Where previously, artwork had been judged more or less on the quality of it, right? So artists would ask like, 'How is this relevant to my time?' Or if they're part of a particular movement, let's say, like abstract expressionism,you know, how are they answering questions or exploring aesthetic goals, for themselves and for that particular movement? The question then started to shift then into, 'How is this relevant to the art market?' And I know that sounds pessimistic, but it is really something that artists, even now, consistently have to face when considering gallery representation is, if their work doesn't happen to be in Vogue, you know, are they willing to accommodate current trends in order to get sales? And if they're not, where's the place for them then? You know, the white cube gallery, as it were, perhaps not being the place that is right for them. So we get to a place then, in the 1990s, where there is inflation. So we all know this, right? We all know about the housing bubble, right, that then burst and sent us into recession. Well, something similar happened in the arts, where in artwork, prices became increasingly inflated and that bubble also burst, both for contemporary artists and for some of your blue chip artists. Now, contemporary artists whose prices had been dramatically inflated in the '90s and the early aughts had a hard time recovering. Blue chip artists, and by that I mean, artists who have already stood the test of time, artists that people in art the world know their names, you know, Picasso, Jackson Pollock, Andy Warhol. So those are what we mean when we say blue chip artists. Even though their prices did fall, they bounced back faster and their prices, you know, got back to a certain level, much stronger than a lot of contemporary artists did. But what happened is it really solidified, those years really solidified in a general mind, this equation of art with commodity. And that is the main shift that causes people to ask that question is, 'What is the resale value of this?' That's what causes them to look at it not as 'This is something I love,' or 'This is something that is important to the dialogue of the art world and art history,' but 'This is a commodity that I can then flip and make some money off of later.'

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, no, that's really significant. Because it's, we all kind of hear these whispers and rumors about, well, you know, there's actually warehouses in the middle of so and so that have millions of dollars of artwork in them that rich people are just filling as a way to launder their money, basically.

Shayla Alarie  Oh, well. That actually, are you familiar with the Panama Papers? 

Miranda Metcalf  No.

Shayla Alarie  So this was a few years back, the Panama Papers were effectively these documents that contained personal financial information about wealthy individuals and public officials that had previously kept private. So effectively, it was like offshore accounts for these extremely wealthy individuals that became public and that released a lot of information about this, it was this landmark sale at Christie's for Victor and Sally Ganz in 1997. And so effectively, it brought to light this idea that it was really rigged, you know, in order to get the highest amount of money. And so there is some validity to that. They're seeing this intent to create art as a commodity to inflate the prices to get the sales to make the rich richer. So if you're curious, if anybody out there is curious about this, the Panama Papers, and the The New York Times actually did a great article called What The Panama Papers Reveal About The Art Market.

Miranda Metcalf  That sounds like that could be a whole nother podcast, like a whole nother episode we could do. 

Shayla Alarie  Yeah, so that's why I was like, Okay, I'll just I'll stop here. 

Miranda Metcalf   So I'd love to just chat a little bit, since we've kind of covered a bit about from the artist's point of view and from the producer's point of view, but as we all know, some of the best and most supportive print collectors are print artists. So I'm sure there's some people who would love to hear just a bit about some nuts and bolts of print collecting. So if there's an artist, or just anyone, and they want to start print collecting, but let's say they don't have an exorbitant amount of funds to start, what's the best way for someone who's a great print enthusiast but not rich to start building a nice print collection?

Shayla Alarie   Sure, that's a good question. So I would say, well, first, it depends perhaps on what kind of art speaks to you. So I know, Miranda, I know that you and I both agree that the best way to buy art is to buy what you love. You can't do anything better than to buy what you love. So that's step number one. Step number two is buy from someone reputable. Now, in the art market today, you and I both know that there are two great ways to sell your work and one is through gallery, through a reputable gallery. So finding a space that has a solid knowledge of prints in particular. So there are a lot of galleries that sell prints, but genuinely just don't know a lot about them. So you would just do better to go to a gallery that... I mean, this sounds bad, but if you can find one. Unfortunately, there aren't many that specialize in prints. But if you can find one that specializes in prints, and has an expert on staff, finding someone who's very knowledgeable to guide you. Second is to find those artists, because there are plenty who find that the gallery space is not right for them, and are selling on their own. And honestly, you can't get a better provenance than that. Buying from the artist directly, and I know a lot of artists use online sources like Instagram to sell their work. So I would maybe seek out the artists that you like and either buy from them, or seek out the spaces that specialize in prints and have that reputation, have that expertise, who are going to guide you. Because unfortunately, as you and I both know, there's a lot of not only fakes and forgeries - I think a lot of people get caught up in the like, 'Oh, is this a forgery? Is it a fake?' - not that those don't exist, but more often than not, in the secondary market in particular, if we want to bring our focus back there, what trips people up is misinformation. Sometimes the galleries just genuinely don't know. They are misleading in their information. And so people buy something thinking it's one thing and finding out it's something else completely. So that is the largest pitfall with prints on the secondary market, particularly for thinking of, you know, ones that are probably like, oh, goodness, Salvador Dali.

Miranda Metcalf  Oh, Mr. Salvador.

Shayla Alarie  Exactly. That is a whole other kettle of fish. 

Miranda Metcalf  So maybe actually, to kind of use Salvador Dali as an example, just to move from the abstract to the specific, could you speak a little bit to why Salvador Dali is so problematic? Because I feel like he's a case study in the things that can go wrong in print collecting, especially when you're working for an artist whose work is all secondary market.

Shayla Alarie  Yeah, so with Salvador Dali presents an interesting case study in the various different kinds of print that you're gonna find on the secondary market. So first are signed lifetime impressions. So, working in the secondary market with prints, we know that we have multiple originals, and one of the greatest tools at our disposal are catalog raisonnes that tell us what kind of paper something is printed on, how many of a particular edition were printed, where the signature was located, so there's various and sundry markers, then, that we as dealers can look at and identify something as coming from a known edition. And then we look at the signature and authenticate the signature. And so if all of those things line up, then as a print expert, you can say with confidence, 'Yes, this is something from this edition that we see here, historically recorded, meets all of the parameters. I with my eyes can see this and know that it is, let's say, a lithograph with hand color, and I can identify it as such.' And you know the things to look for. So, that is best case scenario. So second to that is a restrike. So, a restrike is something that is from an original plate, stone, or block, so the original matrix, but is done posthumously. And so it's not a fake or forgery, but it's not a lifetime signed impression, either. It can still be a quality print, but if it's not marketed truthfully, then someone could buy something that does have value, but maybe pay more for it than it's worth. So the lifetime signed impressions, or even like lifetime impressions that are unsigned, because those exist versus a restrike. And then so the next one down the line are our collaborative prints, and this applies to Dali in particular. And so those are ones in which he was aware, and perhaps even contributed to, reproductions of his work, but they are in fact, reproductions. So he created watercolors that he then authorized to be reproduced as lithographs. And those are some of the most problematic, because they weren't very well documented. And so we don't know, for example, like what kinds of paper they're printed on or how many of each. We have a vague idea of what might have been done. And so even though you could get a print, so we can look at something and say, 'Yes, this is a lithograph and we can look at it and identify it as such,' you know, it's not a lifetime impression, it is still, in fact, a reproduction. And then beyond that, that's when you get into the straight up fakes and forgeries, things that were produced either in ways that we're just unaware of, that aren't documented, and so a dealer just shouldn't touch, or they are straight up reproductions that people are then unaware of as having any sort of difference between a reproduction and an original print. So like Lincoln in Dalivision, for example, is one of the prime examples. It's a reproduction. Like, it was a painting that Dali made. And there are many, many, many reproductions of it, some of which he signed, but they're still reproductions. And so just because something has a pencil signature on it does not mean it's an original print, and it does not mean that it is valuable. It's a signed poster.

Miranda Metcalf  Right. So it essentially has the value that any famous person's autograph would have in that situation.

Shayla Alarie  Exactly. Yeah. And so again, not that it's not valuable, or doesn't have any value, it's just not gonna have the same value as a lifetime signed impression of, you know, a Dali work, which is, you know, Dali is very difficult to authenticate, because of all of the complexities and all of the different versions of his work that he released. And of course, there's always a rumor, and this is something that people would always bring up is like, 'Oh, yeah, Dali just signed a bunch of blank pieces of paper and had his publishers print on them, right?' And like, not exactly. I mean, there were - he did give broad license to publications of his work and kind of signed things willy nilly. But that is kind of a myth. Not as straightforward as as it sounds. I mean, it's one of those things where it's based in fact, but not necessarily 100% true. The most useful thing I can say about Dali prints is don't buy one on a cruise. Just don't buy any art on a cruise, actually.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. So could you ever, with a clear conscience, recommend someone who may not have the resources to do, basically, authentication theirself - you know, as you said, the catalog raisonnes are so important, and a lot of them are so rare that they cost more than some of the prints from some of these artists, the raisonnes themselves - to ever buy from an auction, even a reputable auction, if they're going for prints?

Shayla Alarie  Yeah, so auctions, some of them have a team that does do authentication and quality control, others do not. Auctions are, in general, a buyer beware arena. So it just depends on where you're going. If it's a smaller local auction house, I would apply the same logic, you know, if it's something you love, even if you buy it, and you find out it's not an original print, are you still gonna love it for the price? You know, is it worth it to you? Then yeah, go ahead and buy it, knock yourself out. But if you're only buying it because you think it might have some value, just proceed with caution.

Miranda Metcalf  As long as we're talking about the whole world of the secondary print market, is condition and also the issues around conservation once you, let's say, you've purchased a Kollwitz, how are you going to keep this so you can pass it on to your granddaughter?

Shayla Alarie  That is one of the key issues when buying from auction, because a lot of them aren't going to inspect the condition of a print. With painting and with sculpture, a lot of times you can see the condition, they present themselves. But with works on paper, a lot of issues can be hidden by a frame. And it's not until you open that frame are you going to be able to see the extent of the condition issues. So anything framed before the 1990s, you can expect some condition issues, because for decades works were framed with the intention of not taking them out again. Framing was supposed to be permanent. It wasn't expected ever that the work was going to come out, because why would you need to conserve a work on paper? And so you're just going to find something, even if it was framed well, if it was framed in the 70s, there's going to be something. And this usually comes from one of two areas: either it's going to be burned by the acid in materials that touch it, so non archival matboard, cardboard even, if the paper is laid against it, it's just going to be stained from the leaching out of the acids over time. You're also going to see things like mat burn that comes out of the cut edge of a mat around a piece, the acid leaches out faster and creates a brown frame around it where it's touching the paper, and then there's also toning. Toning comes from exposure to light. Anything that's framed is going to be exposed to light. Even if you have the fancy UV protective glass right now, it's not going to hold out all the light. It helps, don't get me wrong. Really good museum glass is awesome and worth it if you can afford it. But nevertheless, you know, if you put something in direct sunlight, it's still going to get through. And so of course, non-UV glass, it's going to happen much, much faster. And then that browns the paper over time. The worst condition issues that you can ever encounter with a piece is adhesive. And so that's something that can be devastating. So I would see this particularly with work like Piranesi and Goya, mainly because they have editions that were printed much earlier in history, and so sometimes you could be looking at a frame job that was done 100 years ago in which the work is just completely glued to a surface. So a lot of the adhesives, they cannot be removed by a conservator, they stain the work and it just cannot be removed by most conservative processes. Often, the backboard would have to be stripped off piece by piece. You can't float the work off of a board that it's been glued down on to, you actually have to strip it off the back of the board with some adhesives. Though conditions like mat burn and like toning usually can be cleaned, depending on the severity of it, because the paper can be bleached. And it's as simple as that in a lot of cases. That's with the caveat being that most prints with traditional printmaking methods, like traditional intaglio and traditional lithographs, are done with oil based inks. And so a lot of the conservators' processes are based on that assumption, that we're dealing with oil based inks. Unfortunately, if you have any water based inks or hand color that is water based, you, in general, can't clean that unless you go to a specialist because those inks will wash right out. You also have to be careful of any collector's stamps, any signature stamps, effectively anything that might be on the surface of that print that is water based, if you need to clean it, it's gonna wash out.

Miranda Metcalf  And there are definitely some collector's stamps that would add value to the piece or just add history that you would not want to lose.

Shayla Alarie  Precisely, yeah. So especially with older works like with Rembrandts or Durer, for example, we have collections of notable collectors and what their collector's stamps looked like. And so it can be one way to authenticate a piece, if you have a particular collector's collector's stamp on it, because you can trace it back to that particular provenance. And you definitely don't want to lose that because it's going to decrease the value. But the condition, you know, also decreases the value of the work. And so, you know, you really have to then start gauging whether or not it's worth the risk. And so to start, to answer the second part of the question, to preserve your own work once you buy one, so you do have, you know, a Kathe Kollwitz. And it's in great condition, because you bought it from a reputable dealer. Then yes, the best thing you can do, again, is go to a reputable framer. Shout out to Gallery Frames in Seattle. So we would often send people to - so for example, Gallery Frames here in Seattle, because we know they know how to handle paper and they know how to frame them carefully, using all archival materials, making sure that the paper does not come in contact with anything that is not acid free or archival. And then it's up to you whether or not you want to pop for the UV protective glass. But the more important thing is just to not hang it in direct light.

Miranda Metcalf  And then I think probably the last part that I can think of, it's interesting, talking to you, it's like it's all coming back. But could you just maybe talk briefly about provenance and certificates of authenticity?

Shayla Alarie  Oh, boy, yes. So there tended to be, in my time at Davidson Galleries, collectors who didn't know anything about print collecting and so would come to us for guidance, several clients who knew quite a bit, you know, very knowledgeable and do their own research ahead of time, and then there's that client that fell in the middle. And they tended to know just enough to know the words provenance and certificate of authenticity. And with print collecting, those two things, they can be good but aren't necessarily proof of an authentic print. So with paintings and sculpture, usually, you get provenance with any particular piece because the sale records have been tracked, essentially, from when it left the artist's studio to when you buy it. That is just common, and so it's become a buzzword. But with prints, because we're dealing in a secondary market that has multiple originals, provenance is usually - not always, but usually - something you just can't track. And that's because historically It wasn't tracked. Prints weren't viewed as important as paintings and sculpture. And so people just didn't keep records. And as early as like 50 years ago, I've had clients come in to resell their own works, like I'm talking to the person who bought it, and they have no records at all of their own purchase that they can provide me. They don't even remember what gallery they bought it from, because it was 50 years ago when they were in France, you know. And so that is why then going to a dealer who has an expert on staff who can authenticate and has that catalog raisonne, that's why that is important. So having a provenance or lack thereof does not necessarily mean that it's good or bad, it just is when you're dealing with with prints. And so certificate of authenticity, then, leads me to that reputable dealer again. Because any jerk with a printer can print their certificate of authenticity. See our notes back there about never buying something from a cruise. What I was saying before about misleading information, again, some dealers doing it deliberately, and some dealers just being ignorant of the things that they need to look for. And both of those usually end up with a certificate of authenticity with misleading or vague information to help, like artist, title, and then that's it. Then the signature and the gallery, but the gallery closed, you know, they were only operating for like, five years. But you give that person that shiny gold foil covered certificate of authenticity, and they feel secure and like that's money in the bank. And that is just, it's just heartbreaking, because it's so not true. I can't tell you how many people brought in, you know, a piece that they had purchased, and they hand me with confidence their manila folder, with the bill of sale and with the certificate of authenticity, and I have to tell them, you know, 'Okay, yep, this is a Miro. But this is an undocumented edition of Miro, these are the ones we know of, so this is likely an unauthorized printing of his work, and I can't touch it.' And so with a very, very reputable gallery, one that has a lot of history and reputation, then you don't necessarily need a certificate of authenticity. Your bill of sale from that gallery is going to really be all that you need. But if you want one, a gallery will issue you one. Like if you ask. At Davidson, you know, we did that, even though because of the long reputation of Davidson Galleries and our own expertise there, mine and Sam's, the bill of sale usually would have been enough. But we would often issue certificates of authenticity, because people like to have them for their records. And that was fine, but the presence of a certificate of authenticity does not mean that it is authentic. It just means someone had a printer.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. And I think that that would be the really hard moment, when people would come in, it's not like they were trying when they bought it to get a deal and scam someone out of something and feel like, 'Oh, I got this Miro for super cheap and now I'm going to flip it.' You know, they often bought it in good faith. For what was a lot of money. And I remember one particular heartbreaking moment when the guy who came in and was like, 'These were for my grandkids. You know, I'm selling these to get money to help pay for my grandkids' college.' And they were all reproductions.

Shayla Alarie  Yeah. And that was actually what I was thinking of when I said Miro in particular, because he had been buying these Miro pieces for decades. And they were his, he considered them like his savings account. And he had brought them in to us, and he was finally going to make this money and can leave this to his grandkids. And yeah, I had to tell him, and it was exactly that. They were lithographs, and they were Miros. But there were certain things like those particular Miros, for example, were only issued for Derriere le Miroir, which was a magazine. So they should have been on cheaper paper, and they should have had centerfolds in them. But they were on nice paper and no centerfolds. And so with artists like Miro and with Calder, there are instances where there are lithographs out there, but we can't place them. We're not entirely sure where they came from. But they look like they were from some of the original stones, but not all. So you see color discrepancies, you see some parts of the print missing entirely, and then the signatures are also off. So those three things indicate that it is an unauthorized edition. And that's what this gentleman had. And yeah, it was heartbreaking. I remember I had to go get the owner of the gallery because he didn't believe me. He was just so outraged. So I actually did have to go and get Sam to come down and corroborate what I'd said. And he just crumbled. It was one of the worst days I had there.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, that was a rough one. Although I think this is actually kind of a natural transition, though, speaking of having to go get the man from upstairs. You know, I think something that we both faced being in the print market, of course, was being young women in the field. And I think that I didn't get it as bad as you because a lot of my art that I was selling, a lot of the artists I was working with, weren't really necessarily known to anyone. You know, they're contemporary printmakers, so within printmaking, they're known, but people didn't tend to come in with this sense of like, 'Oh, I know about Sean Caulfield. I took an art history class.' You know, I think I had it a bit easier than you, but you were in the old boys club. 

Shayla Alarie  I sure was. 

Miranda Metcalf  And so I would see moments when people would just not believe you, or talk down to you. And yeah, I'm wondering if you want to talk a little bit about that element of your experience.

Shayla Alarie  Oh, sure. Yeah. So I mean, like anything, there are some standout examples. Because as you mentioned, I'm a woman, I look younger than I am, I'm small of stature. I'm blonde, I have blue eyes. And so I did get a lot of that perception that I was an intern or an assistant and not the director of the gallery. I would have people pat me on the head, like 'Oh, isn't she cute?' I literally had a gentleman, so Sam and a gentlemen were looking through the bins for something that I knew where it was, so I approached them and I'm like, 'Oh, do you need my help?' And the gentleman Sam was speaking to, he literally turned his back on me and shushed me away, like with his hand, like beckoned me to leave him alone. Then there was another instance where I was with a gentleman, he was bringing work in on consignment and I was going through the paperwork with him, like the consignment agreements, going over the terms with him. And at that point in time, Sam just happened to come downstairs. And so usually when that happens, as a courtesy, I introduce them, like, 'Oh, by the way, this is Sam Davidson. He's the owner of the gallery. Sam, this is so and so who is consigning some work with us.' And this gentleman was also very, very tall, as was our boss, a very tall man. He turns around and says, I swear, 'That's what I like to see, a tall man!' And I remember that because okay, I know he didn't mean anything necessarily by that towards me in particular, but he just effectively said everything that I was not. And immediately, what happened was, Sam took over that conversation even though I had done all of the authentication and price research for this consignment. So yeah, there are those examples, where I was dealing with a clientele that was overwhelmingly male, overwhelmingly white, and overwhelmingly older. And so usually what would happen is I would have to prove myself. Effectively, I would have to outsmart them and prove that I was knowledgeable. And then usually, in those instances, what I would get is like, 'Wow, well you sure know a lot about this!' So what I learned over the years at Davidson was how to navigate these waters gracefully, because when you're a dealer, as angry as those situations can make you, you still are in a professional environment. You are representing the gallery and in your own professional space. And so flying off the handle is not going to help you. As a professional woman, it's only going to reinforce those stereotypes about women being emotional in the workplace. So I would just have to learn how to gracefully sidestep those comments and yet try and draw their attention to what they were saying. So usually when I would get that - so I was like, alright, I'm gonna have to prove myself, and so I would, because I knew a darn lot - and inevitably, they'd go, 'Wow, well, you're really knowledgeable!' And often I would just kind of step back and say, 'You sound surprised!' And that usually had the effect that I wanted, you know, I didn't offend them. But I very much pointed out that they were being condescending to me. Because of course I know! What was it you used to say? It's like, I have a master's degree, 10 years experience, and I'm a nice person!

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, that was it! Although I know it was never particularly comfortable for you, some of my favorite afternoons were watching you gracefully steer someone towards a, perhaps an unconscious bias. That worked really well. 

Shayla Alarie  I remember you being quite amused. 

Miranda Metcalf  Or just like, I'd hear something come out of someone's mouth and I'd be like, this is gonna be good.

Shayla Alarie  Yeah, so it was a challenge. You know, albeit, though, once I got more proficient at it and once I got more confident in myself, actually, more importantly - I feel like when I first started at Davidson, it was harder. But once I had more confidence in myself, it became a lot easier to navigate those waters. And sometimes it was fun for me to have those trials, you know, not that I necessarily felt like I needed to lord my expertise over people. But just knowing that I was called to task and I could prove myself even though it became tiring to do it again and again and again. You know, I still met that challenge each and every time.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. And I think that's part of growing professionally in any field, is learning to know your worth. But particularly as a woman in an old boys club, that learning curve has to be a lot quicker in order for you to, well, keep your sanity, but also to thrive, I think. 

Shayla Alarie  Yeah. You just, I think, with a lot of women professionals, too, we can't just be as good as, we have to be better. So I felt like I had to truly be an expert in a lot of the fields in order to countermand something someone might be telling me. One of the prime examples was, this was at a fair, at a trade fair. I was not in my capacity as a print dealer at that time, I was looking for another gallery. But I came across a booth that had two Dali prints, surprise, surprise. One of them was an original lithograph and the other was a reproduction. But he had them both as lithographs, and both at the same price. And I went over to him, and I'm like, 'Excuse me. I'm sorry, but did you -' because again, genuinely, I didn't know, some people just don't know. So I went up to him like, 'I'm sorry, did did you realize that that one over there is in fact a reproduction print?' And he, of course, and he was an older gentleman, he got all puffed up. 'Do you know who [Albert] Field is and what the Field guide is?' And I was like, 'Well, yeah, that's the catalog raisonne. That's the man who wrote one of the Dali catalog raisonnes.' 'Well, he authenticated both of these!' And I was like, 'Oh, really?' And he throws down these two certificates of authenticity. And I looked at one, I look at the other. And one says lithograph, one says chromolithograph. I pointed at it, and I was like, 'Yeah, see right here? Chromolithograph. That's a method of reproduction. So it looks like Dali signed this, and that's what Field is authenticating, but this is still a reproduction print.' But like, he could so easily have defused me in that moment, if I didn't know off the cuff who Field was. You know what I mean? And because I made such an ardent study of all of the prints and the raisonnes, I had to know that in that moment. So I always think back to that moment, where I couldn't just be as good as, I had to be better. But not all of the clients that I dealt with were a daily struggle. I had so many delightful, delightful clients that were just painful to leave. You know, I miss those working relationships. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, for sure. And they, of course, are what made our jobs worthwhile. So speaking of fairs, though, I get a lot of questions about the current state of art fairs, or really, I think, more specifically, the current state of print fairs. What's your impression of their health, well being, their validity, their necessity, all of that?

Shayla Alarie  Boy, that's tricky, because with dealers who are in the secondary market, most of them are older. And as they get older and as they close their spaces, most of them aren't passing the galleries on to younger dealers, they're just closing. And so while the print fairs did seem to be dominated by secondary market, the future of the secondary market for me, at least at that point, was very unclear. Because I recall, for example, when we did the the Portland Fine Art Print Fair and we were there, the only dealers who were doing the secondary market who were under 50 were me and Bernard, I'm blanking on the gallery where he -

Miranda Metcalf  Armstrong. 

Shayla Alarie  Thank you, Armstrong. We were the only two. That's not to say that there isn't, you know, a future for those spaces. I just think, with secondary market galleries and with contemporary galleries, both, it just seems to me that the gap is widening. The bigger galleries are getting bigger, and the smaller galleries are getting smaller. And it's just changing. Now, because there's a lot more online resources for secondary print dealing, as well as primary market, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just is. But you know, there are still a lot of the powerhouse galleries, a lot of the galleries that have solid reputations in print dealing, that aren't going anywhere. Like Galerie St. Etienne, for example, Galerie St. Etienne in New York City, one of the longest print galleries, and one of the most reputable, and as far as I can tell, they're not going anywhere for a while. So I wish I had a more definitive answer for you. I think, honestly, it just remains to be seen. Because we are at a changing of the guard right now with secondary print galleries. And so I'm curious.

Miranda Metcalf  So just before we sign off, as we go through, and we were talking about all these different things, you kept saying "reputable galleries, reputable galleries." I'm wondering if you would feel comfortable just name dropping a few that you feel are reputable and that people can go to to avoid the cruise ships.

Shayla Alarie  So as we mentioned before, Armstrong Fine Art in Chicago, Galerie St. Etienne in New York, the gentleman in Portland... Augen Gallery, there we go. Oh, William P. Carl Fine Prints in [Durham] North Carolina, I believe. Another reputable dealer in Santa Rosa, California is Annex Galleries. So those are some of the galleries that I dealt with, personally. And if I'm forgetting anybody out there that I did deal with personally, I'm very sorry. But if you are out there and you are looking for a reputable gallery, a good resource for you is the IFPTA website. So that is the International Fine Print Dealers Association. And their site, it's a little wonky. But if you scroll all the way down to the bottom, you'll see a link that says "member dealers," and on that page, you can look up by location. Unfortunately, it's just by city and not by state. So if anybody from the IFPDA is listening, search by state would be great.

Miranda Metcalf  Well, thank you so much for joining me and just throwing down your amazing print knowledge and sharing some war stories from the business as well. So if anyone wants to follow you and your continued art adventures, is there a way that they can do that through the internet?

Shayla Alarie  So right now, the best way you can find me is on Instagram, actually. My handle is @artsy_historian. And there I have my art historian hat on most of the time for my posts. So I post a lot about contemporary arts that I like, historical artists, in my new role - so I'm an art history professor now, post-gallery world employee, post-gallerist. And so that is generally my persona on Instagram, is as art historian. So if you want to follow my exploits there, please do.

Miranda Metcalf  Wonderful, and I will definitely link to that as well. So thank you again, and we'll be in touch. 

Shayla Alarie  Absolutely. It's been a pleasure. 

Miranda Metcalf  Wonderful. Okay, bye. That's our show for this week. Tune in again... So we had recorded the episode a couple of weeks ago that our listeners have just heard. And then I solicited everyone on Instagram for some questions to ask our gallerist here, and I got a few and some really good ones. And as you might be able to hear, I am no longer in my home doing this interview, but instead, I'm in a litho studio. So I'm much more echoey. So I apologize to anyone who that bothers. We will dive in. Josephine asked, how does editioning and numbering affect the value of prints?

Shayla Alarie  There's no difference between a 1/50 and a 50/50. And there is no difference between an artist proof and a numbered edition, in terms of value. Often it will come down to, as far as value goes, it comes down to the name of the artist. There are going to be Dali giclees that are going to sell for more than an original piece by a lesser known artist, even if the edition is 2000. 

Miranda Metcalf  The next question is from Emma, who asked, how did you get your start as a gallerist? 

Shayla Alarie  It's kind of a two part story. I worked a lot in coffee shops and bookstores, in college, and one of my painting professors came in one day and was like, 'Oh hey, Sheila, you know what? A friend of mine owns a gallery and is looking for somebody, would you be interested?' 'Well, maybe like, what is it that that she's looking to have done?' And he's like, 'Well, I don't know. Give her a call.' So her name, he told me, was Jo Anderson, and she she was the owner of Anderson O'Brien gallery in Omaha, Nebraska. So I called her on the phone, I introduced myself, and I said, 'Oh, yeah, so and so recommended me to you. And I was wondering, is the job still open, and what are you looking for?' And she goes, 'Do you know Photoshop?' 'Yes, yes, I do.' 'Can you interview at 11 o'clock?' And it was like 10:30. 'Yes, yes I can.' So I go in, she points to the computer, and she says, 'Can you print this such and such document so it shows the painting and all the information?' So I think, okay, a test. Yes, I can do this. So I did it. And I printed it. And I gave it to her. She's like, 'Okay, now I need this.' And so effectively, what happened is I ended up working like a four hour shift. And so I worked about three days before asking her, 'So do I have a job?' She's like, 'Oh, yeah, I guess we should talk about your pay.' So after that, I didn't expect really to get into gallery work because I went to graduate school for art history and was planning to teach, to get my PhD and to teach. So that's a longer story that I'll edit. Just suffice it to say, I decided to end at my masters. Fortune came along once again and I had a professor who knew a gallery owner here in Seattle, Sam Davidson at Davidson Galleries, and gave me a referral to interview with him for his director of antique prints. That got my foot in the door. And then my resume and my interview got me the job.

Miranda Metcalf  I think, particularly for young people who are interested in getting started, just that ability to just put yourself in situations, show up on time, do good work, be pleasant, and someone's going to look at you and be like, 'Hey, you know, the gallery down the streets looking for someone?'

Shayla Alarie  Yeah, yeah, for anyone out there looking to break in, the best thing you can possibly do is get involved. And depending on your circumstances, you know, that could mean a full fledged internship somewhere. You can also look at artist collectives, or just start showing up, you know, at art openings, talk to people, shake hands.

Miranda Metcalf  So the next question comes from Jane. And she had a really astute question about having relationships with multiple galleries when you make multiples. And she was actually specifically interested in when both galleries, for instance, are doing things like going to the same print fair.

Shayla Alarie  So with most galleries, you will likely have a contract. And so the specifics of who else you can sell with within the confines of that contract are going to be varied depending on who you're working with. But with most galleries, especially if they're selling prints, likely you're going to have some latitude to sell in other parts of the country or internationally. So as long as you're working in a transparent manner within your contract, then no worries, most galleries will give you that space to sell at other locations. The only times I can think of where you might have to limit what you send to a particular gallery is if you have an exhibition coming up, because if you have arranged to do an exhibition with a particular gallery, they're gonna want exclusivity to those works for a while. I'm guessing. You know, again, the best thing you can do is just be transparent with your gallery. But also be aware of your own worth and what they're doing for you. So if you have a gallery that is not really selling well and they've demanded a pretty high exclusivity from you, then it's okay to question that.

Miranda Metcalf  And then how does it work with print fairs? 

Shayla Alarie  As far as I know, that's up to the galleries to work out. I will be honest, that is something that I did not encounter, because I was the antique director. I think maybe you would be able to answer that question better.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. I would definitely say that, yes, that is something that kind of, honestly, isn't your problem. Because if you have developed these relationships within the contracts offered by both galleries, that's kind of like you're doing your thing, you are upholding the professional side of that agreement, and honestly, when I would go to print fairs with contemporary work, yeah, we might have Carol Wax and someone else might have Carol Wax, but chances are, we didn't bring the same Carol Wax pieces. And so the last question is, Tony asked, Do artists still need galleries? And what are the benefits?

Shayla Alarie  That is a really good question. And a question that I know a lot of artists are asking themselves. There are a lot of potential benefits of working with a gallery. So first, ask yourself, do you have enough time and energy to produce work and promote yourself daily? And I mean daily. And then if you are and you do, look at your outlets, so say you are using Instagram, say you're using Etsy, are you selling enough? You know, like through your efforts, maybe your artist website, maybe you have a newsletter, any of the various things that you can do as an artist, are you actually generating the sales that you need and that you want? You might also ask yourself, can you manage and track your inventory? And one of the big things, really, honestly, about gallery representation, is the prestige. You know, just to be perfectly frank, is the prestige important to you? Do you want your work hanging in a white cube space, do you want to go to gallery openings, do you want to do artist talks? Do you want to have that? And for some artists, the answer is yes. And that's awesome. And for some artists, it's no! And that is also fine, too. And then yeah, so to go towards this person's question, asking yourself, are you going to be frustrated by a gallery's rules about sales and exclusivity and commissions? You might also want to ask yourself if you're open to receiving criticism and advice about your work, because there are some artists out there, I know, that would feel that to be a pitfall. Something that they just can't handle working with, you know, and again, that's fine. If you really want that freedom to just do your art the way you want to do it and put it out there in that raw form, then go for it. Go, maybe, to an artist collective and spaces where you can really just express yourself free form and not have to worry about that. But if you do want to sell your work, if you do want to be a part of the business, you know, as we talked about earlier, selling art is a business. If you want to do that, one of the things that can be a benefit from a gallery, if you look at it that way, is receiving advice and criticism about your work.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's that's a really good answer. Because I think people get caught up a little bit in trying to find a hierarchy, you know, that sort of like, well, being with a gallery means you're X, Y, and Z and not being with a gallery means you're X, Y, and Z, and that one is better than the other. And in the end, it comes down to the individual person and what is right for them. So thank you again for coming back and being a part of our experimental artist interaction episode of Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend). 

Shayla Alarie  Oh yeah, happy to do it. 

Miranda Metcalf  That's our show for this week. Tune in again in two weeks time when I'm going to chat with our lady of cut plate and intaglio mastery, Ali Norman. This episode, like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing help from Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Weber. I'll see you around.