episode nineteen | ben muñoz

Published 24 July 2019

Miranda Metcalf  Hello print friends, and welcome to the 19th episode of Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend), the internet's number one printmaking podcast. I'm your host, Miranda Metcalf. I release an episode every two weeks, and on the off weeks, I publish an article on the Pine Copper Lime website, which features images and maybe a bit more information about the artist I'm going to interview. A little bit of housekeeping before I dive in: did you know that Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) has a newsletter with print news from around the world? I spend a couple hours every month on this print news roundup, and I just realized I have probably never mentioned it on the show. So I'm putting a link in this week's show notes, or you can just find it by going to helloprintfriend.com and clicking "Subscribe" at the top of the page. And of course, I promise I won't share your contact information with anyone. Ever. Anytime. Although if you've been using that face aging app, you're pretty much fucked anyway. Skynet, Big Brother, Animal Farm... you get the idea. And speaking of ways to connect, these past weeks Pine Copper Lime has picked up a couple of new Patreon supporters, and I'm not even kidding y'all, I honestly truly happy cry a little bit whenever this happens. It's just incredible to know that there are people out there who say, 'I could get this content for totally free, but you know what? I'm gonna throw a couple dollars PCL's way to show my support.' All you Patreon supporters are amazing. You're the real heroes. You're the real MVPs. Each one of you has personally made me happy cry a little bit. So thank you so very much from myself and my new mic, Mikey. Mikey the mic. You're killing it at keeping printmaking forever, shunning those non believers, and joining this party. I also just finished up my Instagram giveaway today, so one lucky winner has gone home with a stunning large scale etching. But don't despair if you missed out. I have plenty more giveaways on the horizon. So make sure you're following PCL on the gram (@helloprintfriend), and like always, link in the show notes. One last little bit, I've got to plug the PCL online print gallery, because I'm adding a few more works from some of the most popular artists this week. So make sure to be on the lookout for those. Okay, my guest this week is Ben Munoz, a Dallas based printmaker who I invited to come speak about his monumental woodcut series, which is each eight feet high by four feet wide. That's two and a half meters by one and a quarter meters, for all of you in those metric lands. The prints themselves chronicle his family's history of immigrating to the United States from Mexico with the hope of providing a better life for their children. It's aptly named "The Endless Endeavor." So while I thought this is what we were going to talk about - and don't worry, we do - we ended up talking about so much more. Ben offered fantastic insights into what it takes to make a living as a working artist, so I think this episode will be an important listen and a fun listen for anyone who's beginning to think seriously about their art career. So if you like what you hear, please share it with a friend or fellow printmaker. Alright, without further ado, here's Ben. Hey, Ben, how's it going? 

Ben Munoz  It's going good. How are you? 

Miranda Metcalf  Good, good. Thanks for joining me live from the apocalypse in Dallas. 

Ben Munoz  Yes, yeah. 

Miranda Metcalf  So there's power out all over the city. So did you say you're at a library right now trying to get some more WiFi?

Ben Munoz  I've literally nowhere. I'm in a parking lot, because in addition to there being pockets of power out, when the wind blew, branches came and they hit like phone things. So I think cell towers are down. So certain areas of town have like one bar and some have like four.

Miranda Metcalf  So this is the first ever parking lot episode of Pine Copper Lime. But I'm super excited to have you on and to chat about some things. And if we hear any cars in the background or anything, we'll just think of it as white noise. So thank you for your dedication to coming on. 

Ben Munoz  No problem. 

Miranda Metcalf  So yeah, so I knew your work really from the internet, because that's where all things live. And then I had the funny situation of meeting you in person in Dallas, which I touched on before. I knew Kirsten Flaherty, who knew Marco Sanchez, who knew you. And yet, the only one of us who'd ever met in person before was me and Kirsten. But thanks to the magic of the internet, we ended up - well, actually, you ended up - saving us from being stuck somewhere because of downed buses. And we all had a nice drive in traffic together. 

Ben Munoz  In my car with no A/C.

Miranda Metcalf  Yes. But you know, I just definitely was like, 'Ah, here's someone who's doing interesting work and is good at talking about it. I need to have him on the podcast!' So why don't we just begin at the beginning, and I'd love to hear about just you introducing yourself.

Ben Munoz  I am Ben Munoz, I live in Dallas, Texas, and I am a relief printmaker.

Miranda Metcalf  And you're a working artist, that's correct? 

Ben Munoz  Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Miranda Metcalf  Which always has that vague sound, like it's kind of a euphemism. But I suppose what I mean by that is just -

Ben Munoz  Yeah, I'm a working artist, alright. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. Is that you know, you're not doing a day hustle. You're working, selling your work, doing commissions, and paying bills with it, which is amazing. So tell me a little bit about where you grew up and if you always had been interested in art making or what role art had in your childhood, if you had artistic family members, or were taken to museums, or none of the above? What was that like for you?

Ben Munoz  I grew up in Corpus Christi, Texas, which is way down south. It's about six, maybe seven hours south of Dallas. It's this really cool little beach city right on the Gulf of Mexico. And it's got a big printmaking scene, a decent art scene. And I think it's just a good place to be raised. It's like a kind of beachy town. But I wasn't, none of my family is super into the arts, at least growing up. And then I wasn't taken to a lot of museums or anything like that. And I don't think that I even knew I wanted to do art until I got to college. And I had kind of always drawn a little bit, but more like doodled. And I thought, well, I'll kind of pursue that, not really knowing what I was getting myself into. And so I'd say that my art journey or whatever didn't really start until college really. I didn't even take art in high school. So I wouldn't say I had a big interest in it or anything. The interest kind of, once I started, I found printmaking was one of the - I think I took printmaking my first semester, and I just immediately fell in love with it. Oh, god, I loved it.

Miranda Metcalf  And so it was sort of, printmaking kind of brought you to being an artist, it seems like.

Ben Munoz  Oh, yeah. And you know, what's funny is that I used to paint and there was like, a year where I publicly was going around like, 'Oh, no, I'm a painter. I don't even, printmaking's whatever. I'm gonna be a painter.' That didn't happen.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, yeah. Were you falling into the the old trope that you know, printmaking is on paper, it's multiples, it's not really a serious art?

Ben Munoz  I don't think I ever bought into that. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I am a pretty good painter. I'm a better painter than I am a printmaker, in my head. In my opinion, I'm a much better painter. So I was like, 'Well, I'm gonna do what I'm best at. If I'm a better painter, why don't I paint?' Fast forward to now, I think that I'm the only one who thinks I'm a better painter than I am a printmaker, because the galleries that represent me won't take a painting if it's free. They're like, 'No, we want your prints.' And I'm like, 'Okay.' 

Miranda Metcalf  I mean, but part of that is that once a gallery has a market for an artist, it's that whole constant conflict that comes to artists and their galleries and that commercial side of things, which is just, once it's sort of captured, this idea that this is what this individual does, you're locked in. And it doesn't matter if you were doing that at 28 and now you're 68. Your gallery is going to push back on you about changing and evolving, or you're allowed to change, but just not too much.

Ben Munoz  Yeah, gradually, let's slowly kind of inch them into it. Or you could just go to a different side of the US and look for a gallery. Go to the East Coast, give them paintings.

Miranda Metcalf  I wonder if that's really the only way to work around it, is just have multiple galleries for the multiple sides of what you want to do. But my god, galleries are not very fit right now. So even finding a gallery or two to take on your work can be challenging enough, let alone five galleries for the five sides of what you're interested in doing.

Ben Munoz  Yeah, it's interesting. It's kind of - I mean, you know this better than anybody, is it's really about self-marketing and self-publicizing. I've talked myself into so many rooms that I really shouldn't have been in. Somehow, people entertain me way longer than they should. It's not always whoever's the most talented is going to get this. I know so many artists that are ridiculously talented, but they won't make it because they're not businessmen. And there's an actual business side of art that, if you don't get it, will beat you into nothing. And you'll give up. You'll stop making work. If you don't understand that this is a business and you need to make money to survive, you won't be able to sustain yourself.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, and I know that you're really great at documentation of your work and at being a communicator, which I think is huge when it comes to the visual arts. And your Instagram's always got something new, something interesting on it. And were you always kind of a good talker, a good communicator, good at making pitches, or was this something that you had to learn when you realized you wanted to make a living as an artist?

Ben Munoz  First of all, it's very flattering that you think that I'm good at this. I don't know, I think... my mom and my father are both public figures. My mom runs a community center in Corpus Christi called ECF Community Center. And so she's always done balls and galas and, you know, got up there and talked, and the mayor's there and the commissioner, everybody is like, randomly there, and important people donate a lot of money. It's a very funded thing. So she's always been kind of in the public. So I kind of catch sides of that and everything. My father's the same way. And so if you're raised around that, I think you're more likely to be forcefully put into a spotlight. My mom would be like, 'Hey, introduce me at this,' or, hey, say this or that. So when you grow up public speaking, and you grow up meeting people that you can embarrass yourself in front of, I think that you become kind of tailored to that. And it's affected my family in a positive way. My little brother is a really talented musician. I mean, he's an excellent guitar player. And he got a full ride through college, just playing guitar. He's got picked up and he's touring with a band right now, like a big band, playing all through Europe, and they're gonna finish at Carnegie Hall. He's 21, and he's playing Carnegie Hall. That's insane. My older brother too, I mean, he's a lighting technician. And he works at the AT&T Stadium over here, and does program stuff, and all of that. And it's funny, because earlier, I told you that my parents aren't very artsy, but somehow we all ended up in the arts doing something.

Miranda Metcalf  Was there art encouraged? I mean, it sounds like -

Ben Munoz  Oh, totally.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, cuz I'm thinking, when I think of family that has the mayor come to your parties, I definitely would associate that with a family that's going to encourage interests in all aspects of life, including art.

Ben Munoz  Yeah, my parents were ridiculously supportive. Supportive in a way that was almost borderline irresponsible. Like, my little brother came home one day, and he was like, 'I'm gonna play baseball.' And my dad was like, 'Okay, why not?' This kid's a senior in high school. That's now when you start baseball. You learn baseball as a kid, you play t-ball and other stuff. So my dad's like, 'Alright, well, he's gonna play baseball.' So he goes out, and my little brother's like, 'I need all this stuff to play,' because he doesn't have anything. He wants to try out for the team, he doesn't have a glove or anything. So my dad goes and gets him all of this stuff. And he sucks, obviously. I hope he doesn't listen to this. He was so bad! But my dad was just like, he didn't think twice about it, he's like, 'Okay, you want to do this? Let's do it right, then.' He was very supportive. I mean, we were by no means a wealthy family. So for him to go out and get all of that stuff, I mean, that's kind of a big deal. And he would always support us and encourage us. And even if we came home and tried to quit something, he'd be like, 'You should really keep going, and you should really just give it your all until the end of the season, give it your all until the end of the year.' And that mentality really stuck with me, this idea of, don't quit, just keep going. And I think about art like that a lot. Because there's only a finite number of people that are really gonna make it. A lot of people are gonna stop making work. I read something the other day that said that I think only like 10% of the graduates in the United States end up being a full time artist. So you're really fighting to stay in that 10%. And I think about it like, the most important thing is to just not quit. It's like you're running a race, and if everybody else quits around you, eventually if you just don't stop running, you'll be one of those last people in the 10%. And that was really part of that mentality of my father, and my mother, being like, 'Don't quit, keep going. You need to just see it out. You never know how good you're gonna get. You suck right now, but everybody sucks right now. Just keep going.' And then eventually you can ride your bike or do a backflip or whatever they were trying to say.

Miranda Metcalf  Well, I think that I've seen in the last five, ten years, kind of a rash of these sociological studies and books that come out that the theme of them all is, raw talent isn't what makes or breaks success in any field. It's grit. It's just, are you willing to push through any of the dips? Are you willing to come back after you've had a really rough crit on your work? Those are the people who make it. And I think there's even a book called Grit, there's a book called The Dip that kind of has the same idea, that's just sort of about every project, every endeavor in life has that, and it's like, that's sort of what separates those who stay and become artists or musicians or top engineers, or whatever it is, versus people who don't. It's just keeping at it.

Ben Munoz  I've had a lot of conversations with people who are really talented, and they're kind of just frustrated with the art world, because I mean, you know how it is, because you were in it. It's kind of who you know, and it's kind of like being seen, and it's kind of just trying to keep yourself relevant. And there's definitely a social part of it. And a lot of artists are introverts, and they don't really like it. It's very unattractive to them. So I'll hear people kind of talk about like, 'Oh, this whole thing is rigged and it's not necessarily whoever's the most talented, it's whoever's got the connections,' and then this and that. And I was like, 'That should be encouraging to you! Because if it was whoever was the most talented that made it, none of us would make it. You're not the most talented person, I'm not, none of us are.' Because it's connections and getting out there and just being a decent human being and being friendly and all of this stuff, that should be encouraging. It shouldn't be like, 'Oh, well, the most talented people never make it,' like talent is important, but it's not the most important thing. And that should be encouraging. Because if it was all about the best printmakers making it, I would never have made it. I'm nowhere near the best printmaker.

Miranda Metcalf  I love that outlook on it. Because I really am often a little bit of two minds about it, because it's like, I completely agree with you that so much of the quote-unquote "making it" or your success in the art world, however it's defined, but that's usually, you could take the metric of who comes to the opening and how many pieces get sold, for instance, or something like that, and everything that leads up to that, right? So like, who gets that invitation to even have those walls in that public space, with a gallery that's good at promotion? All of these different things, to get the work seen, to get it sold, to get it into collections, however you're looking at it. It is very much about connections and your ability to be an advocate for yourself and to communicate. Sometimes I'm like, 'Oh, does that suck?' I don't know. Because then it's sort of like, what does it even mean to be a good artist? You know, cuz I think we've all moved beyond, "Well, it's whoever can draw a horse the best."

Ben Munoz  Wouldn't that be funny, though? Everybody graduates and it's like, 'One horse, everybody. One horse. Give me your best. And I'll decide who will continue.'

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. And there certainly are certain schools out there, both in the literal sense of the school as in like the university where people go to study, and schools, as in schools of thought, that that would say, 'No, no, it's the horse. Who draws the horse the best? They're the best artist.' But most everyone I know, I think would be somewhere in the middle, is that you don't... ideally, we don't have someone who's just producing something that's shit getting all of these art resources because they have connections. And by "shit," I don't mean like he or she can't draw. I mean, like, they're making drivel, they're making things that are derisive, they're making things that are offensive, you know, anything like that. Or just meaningless. But also, I don't care how well you can draw a horse, if you're a total asshole, I don't want to come to your exhibition. And I think that's fine, too.

Ben Munoz  I had a professor one time who told me something that really opened my eyes. Because he was talking about - I was really focused on drawing the best horse I could. That was my goal. I was talking about my paintings, I was like, 'I want these paintings to be as realistic as possible.' And I was just painting and painting and painting the same thing over and over and over, trying to make it look as real as possible. And he was watching the progress of it. And then finally he came up to me, and he said, 'Why are you doing this? Like why this?' And I was like, 'Oh, it just has a lot of interesting values. And I just want to see if I can make it look real.' And he was like, 'But what's the point of it? Why are you doing this?' And he goes, 'Even if you can get this to look so real, like really, really real, if there's no substance, if there's nothing behind it -' and he was like, 'It's like meeting a really attractive person who's just the worst human being in the world.' You know, you have to have some depth beneath that.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. I actually wanted to ask you about the art scene in Dallas, because it is a city that I feel like has a lot of support for the arts. You know, when I was working at the gallery in Seattle, I had some great collectors in Dallas. I had people from Dallas who would come to Seattle and always come see me. And I think part of that is obviously just that there's money there. But at the same time, I don't know that people associate it as being a particularly progressive city. So what's that balance like?

Ben Munoz  When I first moved to Dallas, I felt like I was in a Sims simulation. Because it was just a bunch of people with T shirts and jeans walking, just going about their day, with like a smoothie in their hand. It's different from where I'm from. But it's also strangely familiar, because every place in Texas feels kind of familiar. But there's, like you said, there's a lot of money. Today, I had an opening with this group show, and I went to this place called The Eisemann. Really nice building. I mean, it's a stupid nice building. It's, it's nice. And I ran into this guy, Chuck, who's a stone carver. And I've taken a stone carving class with him. He's a super nice retired man. And I saw him, and I was like, 'Hey, Chuck, how's it going?' We talked for a little bit. You know, Chuck works on like onyx and stuff like that. Chuck leaves, and then I run into Art, who is the teacher who taught the carving class. And I'm talking to him, and he was like, 'Oh, did you see Chuck?' And I was like, 'Yeah,' and within talking to him, I find out that Chuck, his real name is Charles Eisemann. Like, the guy who the building's named after. He donated tens of millions of dollars, and they built this big arts space and named it after him. He's a multi-millionaire, and I had no idea. He was just carving. And that's how common millionaires are in Dallas. It's ridiculous. They're everywhere. I've never... so there's a lot of money here. And Dragon Street, are you familiar with Dragon Street? It's where all the galleries are in Dallas, it's where a lot of them are in the design district. So you can go down Dragon Street, and I mean, there's several really big galleries there, just on that street. But you go there, and I mean, on opening nights - because the galleries kind of have openings they correlate with each other - you can see Maseratis just lined up. And it's like, man, there's people with a lot of money. And work sells here like I never saw it sell where I'm from. Just the market here, and it's like you're saying, there's a lot of collectors here. I see work that... I've never seen something like it. I've never seen a gallery that has work for $30-60,000 and it's all being sold that night. I mean, it's flying. It's flying. People are buying it and collecting it, and then you can walk through and like half the gallery is sold, and it's opening night. That show's gonna run longer. Being here really opened my eyes to the idea of like, 'Okay, I can not just survive, but I can make a living. Like, I can do this.' And that's really hard to do if you're somebody like me, and you're from a city that's small, and you don't see that, because then it just seems... it seems almost like a dream. But then if you put yourself in the thick of it, you can look around and be like, 'Oh, this isn't a dream. It's happening, and it's happening for a lot of people. And why not me?'

Miranda Metcalf  So what do you think it is about the culture of Dallas that combines the means but also the want to purchase art? Because you know, Seattle, It's famous for having extremely wealthy people, and we don't have a state income tax in the state of Washington. So that is why the richest people in America enjoy living there. But I would never describe the Seattle art scene in terms of its robustness in the same way that you described the Dallas art scene. So what would you say that makes it so great that you have people who are wanting to be patrons with the millions that they have?

Ben Munoz  I don't really know the answer to that. I don't have like a formula. But I would imagine it's kind of an investment opportunity, if you buy the work of people... you know, it's going to be worth more money soon, especially if you can saturate the market. You and all of your friends can agree to make this guy's career by buying like 30 of his pieces, and then you've given him the means to live for the next maybe five years if he was selling work for like $80,000 and you buy all of his work. He's set up now. So he's gonna stand the test of time now, at least for a decade, if he's smart and budgets that money. So now he's going to continue to make work, his work sells, so he's going to have no problem having shows because galleries want to make that money, and they know that his work sells. So he's going to be able to put the work In the gallery, it's going to continue to sell because you and your initial 30 friends bought it, now everybody else is buying it because they know it's selling and they want to collect it. So they're gonna collect it, they're gonna hold on to it. And then those initial 30 guys that made that investment in that kid, they now have his original works, and it's gonna sell for four, maybe five times what he paid for it. And it's a big investment. So I mean, it's possible that that's it, and I don't want to sound negative, like that's the only reason people buy art.

Miranda Metcalf  No, I don't think so. It's possible to be doing both, right, investing and purchasing something that you love. 

Ben Munoz  There's people here who have collections that they're never gonna sell. I mean, I met this guy, John, he teaches at the CAC here in Dallas. And he was telling me that there's a guy who lives here, I forget his name, but he's got blue chip artists, like big, big, big, heavy hitting names, that it's just like, how on earth did you get your hands on that? And he's got work that he's never gonna sell it, you know, he loves it. He wants to have it. And he loans it to museums so that they can see it, and you know, he's not selling it. He has it, and he loves it. And I think that there's also a big part of that, and then in addition to that, for printmakers, there is so much support among the 20-something, 30-somethings, that are going to the show that you and your friends put on in this warehouse, and your work is like $60, you know, $80. People are coming out, and they're buying it, and they're going home, they're putting it on their walls instead of the IKEA stuff, you know? They're buying prints, and they're buying paintings, and stuff that you and your friends - you can have a show here, and people come out, and you could sell everything. That's not uncommon, for people to come and support their friends and just support the arts, too. I've had people come through and buy work, and I don't know them, they just know that I live here. And that's enough for them.

Miranda Metcalf  I love that. And this is, of course, a huge question that you may or may not know the answer to, but what advice would you give to someone who is hearing this and saying, 'Oh, my God, I want that where I'm from?' Like, how do you cultivate that sense of support among the 20- or 30-somethings who don't want a misty photo of the Eiffel Tower above their sofa?

Ben Munoz  Again, I can't give you an ABC formula, but I can tell you some things that... like, where I'm from in Corpus, there are so many talented people. And there's just not enough spaces for them to show work. Where I'm from, there are literally like four galleries. And that's it for the city. And if you have four galleries, they're not going to give, traditionally, they're not going to give wall space up to guys who are selling prints for $40, which is what the people are going to buy. So I think that - and especially, this isn't uncommon at all if you're from a city that's not Seattle or not San Francisco - you're combating this idea of all the kids going, 'This place sucks, bro.' There's no arts, there's no this or that. So it's hard for people to support local stuff if they don't like where they live. And I think the main thing to combat and to fight is to be like, 'Hey, this is a beautiful place. And these are the great things about it.' And I think that's the main thing, is that people like - I've encountered a lot of people that maybe necessarily don't like living in Dallas, but they like living in Oak Cliff, which is like a neighborhood of Dallas. Maybe they like Richardson a lot, or they like North Dallas, they like these pockets, these areas. Deep Ellum. Deep Ellum is huge in Dallas. So if you live there, you support artists from Deep Ellum. And it's just that pride and that, 'Oh, I want to support what's happening in this community, because I don't want it to stop.' So I think having that community, I think building the community, and then giving them something to support if they want to support it and they want to keep it going and stuff like that. But it's also important to note that I don't know what I'm doing. Don't listen to me. This could all be - I'm doing okay right now, but this could all be over in 10 years. Like in 10 years, I could burn out and I could be in IT somewhere. So what do I know?

Miranda Metcalf  But I do think what you're saying about that connection between pride of place and supporting artists, that is significant, because when I was working in Seattle at a printmaking gallery there, we would often get people coming in specifically requesting Seattle based artists. And sometimes that was because they were from Seattle, but often it was because they were visiting. And there are people who are buying art as a form of tourism, as a way to bring something back that reminds them of their trip that's going to be so much more significant to them than a key chain with a Space Needle on it or something. And so there's something to that that I haven't ever necessarily done a lot of thinking about, but could be worth a deep dive at some point, that connection between art and place and where an artist is from. And they wouldn't necessarily be looking for like, 'I want an artist who's doing the Space Needle.' They could be doing anything. So as we touched on, and what all of the conversation thus far has been about, is kind of part and parcel of you being a working artist, as we said, and all of that, so the scene that you're in and making connections and all of that. So you do that, but then you also run Casa Press, is that correct, with your wife?

Ben Munoz  Yeah, so Casa Press saves my life almost every month. I'm super fortunate to really have it, and basically what it is is we block print on T shirts, you know, that old chestnut. We do that, but we really, we noticed that it sold. I mean, if something sells, why not do it more? We didn't want to do it live. I noticed that they weren't interested in seeing it printed live, they just wanted the shirt. They wanted to say, 'Oh, it's block printed!' And I was like, 'Well, I can do that.' So I think I took like five designs, and I had a friend who had just opened up an apparel store downtown. And I grew up skating, so all of my clothes and everything that I bought was always from skate shops. So I was really into that culture and really that underground subculture of buying, you know, Antihero stuff and Powell Peralta and all that stuff. So that's where I went to buy my clothes, and he was opening up his shop, and I was like, 'Hey, can I put some shirts in here and maybe put this block, and you can explain how it's made and it's different, stuff like that.' So I put them in there, and he did really strong sales. And I was like, 'Oh, that's cool.' So then I started to give him more and try different designs and make them more local to the city that he's in. And then from there, we went to another store, and then another store, and the company has kind of grown. And now we have a shop in Fort Worth, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Corpus Christi, and Santa Fe, New Mexico. So we produce enough shirts to stock all of those. And it only takes like two or three days, it's like two or three days of block printing shirts, we fold them up, we make them look really nice and package them up and send them off. And with most of the shops, we do consignment deals, some of them we wholesale, if they're too far do a count and restock and everything like that. But yeah, it's all block printed stuff. And my work is, you have to buy the print or look on Instagram. So it's different when I can print it on a shirt, and then somebody wears it. It's like a walking billboard. And I can just put whatever I'm trying to communicate through my work on this shirt. And they're gonna walk around with that. It's really interesting. I've been to cities, like I've been downtown San Antonio, and I've seen people wearing the clothes. It's like a calavera with two flyers, it's talking about the end of the world and something else, and I'm just like, 'Wow, this is crazy. Like, that's what I'm trying to say, and this guy's just walking around saying it for me.' That's really cool. He has no idea who I am. He bought it because he liked it, and now he's walking around.

Miranda Metcalf  You know, I had a really great chat with Elizabeth Jean Younce the other day, she's going to be on the podcast as well. And one of the things we talked about is that she has her quote-unquote "fine art" practice, which, you can probably hear me rolling my eyes when I say that, just because I think it's all just artificial hierarchy. You know, it's like, "If it's on paper, it's fine art, if it's on a T shirt, it's craft," you know, that's just insanity. But for lack of a better term, she has her fine art practice. And then she has something called Mustard Beetle, which is T shirts and home goods and that kind of thing, too. And I think that's something that printmaking really affords artists, which is really neat, is that because it has that quote-unquote, again, "craft" side of it, you can kind of double dip and you can take advantage of really all aspects of it and have it be a little bit different and make that step towards being financially solvent through your art, the way a painter may not have that same option.

Ben Munoz  No, yeah, totally. And it's the same block, too, and that helps me a lot because my edition for some of the smaller prints that, I know you've seen them, the little, like "These Bones Shall Live" series, they're relatively simple woodcuts. There's no background, they just something that I wanted to say real quick and tear it out. And I can, I'll sell those for like $25 a print, because I'll run an edition of like 70. But once that edition's done, I can continue to print them on shirts for as long as whenever. And nobody's ever said anything to me, like, 'Hey, that's not right,' or, 'I have a problem because I own your print.' It's just, you know, I'll run them over and over and over and then maybe I'll get tired of the design and then I'll throw it. I'm producing maybe two or three new ones every month to keep it fresh and get new product into the shops, but that's pretty much what Casa Press is.

Miranda Metcalf  And does Casa Press have a separate internet presence?

Ben Munoz  You know, you're hitting on something really interesting, because if I was more professional, I would do that. But it takes a lot of time. I'm at this weird point in my career where I need to decide what I'm going to do. Because if I want to really grow Casa Press anymore, it is going to demand more of my time. But at the same time, I have a body of work that I'm showing right now, I have three solo shows this year, I have countless group shows and artist talks and all kinds of stuff that is demanding my time. My wife and I are going to like three different states in a few months, and we have an install and artist talk at Hecho el Mano, a gallery down there. And that's "The Endless Endeavor," which is this big installation mural project thing that I did. So I don't have the time to pour into it that I should, so because of that I'm hesitant to make an Instagram, a separate website. If I make a separate website, I'm scared that orders are going to pour in and I'm not going to have the time to keep up with it. And I just don't know what I'm doing, Miranda. I have no idea what I'm doing. I just want to print, you know? I just want to live life. But I used to have one, short answer, I used to have a separate Instagram. I was horrible at running two Instagram accounts. So what I'm probably going to do is just put, on the hang tags of all the products, I'm probably just going to put the at sign of my regular Instagram. You can get the shirts on my website. On my website, you can go to it, and they're available, but I'm pretty positive in the next few days, I'm going to take that down. Because the traffic in the shops, we sell a stupid amount of product. On my website, I sell like five shirts a month. That's very inconvenient.

Miranda Metcalf  I totally get it, because five is like, especially when you've got so much else going on, that's just not enough. You know, that's just not enough to keep it.

Ben Munoz  It's inconvenient, is what it is. So I was telling my wife, I really think that we need to, I need to take this year and I need to figure out what I'm doing, career wise, and what are my goals? I think that's something that's really important. The other day, I sat down and I wrote out what I wanted my legacy to be as an artist. At the end of my life, what do I want to accomplish? What do I want to leave behind? Who do I want to help? Who do I want to empower? What do I want people to say about me when I'm gone? What do I want to accomplish? And I think it's good to write that out so that I can begin to make steps towards that and I'm not just aimlessly surviving.

Miranda Metcalf  I think that's huge, and really smart, because it is easy just to focus on surviving and drifting when you're in the arts, and just day to day stuff, and kind of lose track of that big picture. So speaking of the big picture and the "Endless Endeavor" series that you touched on, I really want to talk about that before we sign off, kind of have that be the last thing we chat about. I would love to just hear you talk about, first, just for people who aren't familiar with it, just sort of physically and aesthetically what it is. And then we can maybe talk about the iconography as well.

Ben Munoz  Okay, so like you said, I have the blocks installed at the Art Center of Corpus Christi. And those are the people who commissioned it. They were really, really awesome. They gave me the opportunity to carve the story, the history of my family, from my eyes. So for the most part, it doesn't include anybody that I never met. So it starts with my grandfather, because I never met anyone beyond that. So it starts with him, and then it ends with my two daughters. And the first panel is talking about my grandfather, and he came here illegally when he was, I think he was like 19 or something like that. So it starts with him coming here, working hard, and making a life and his family and everything like that. And then it runs down to my daughters, that's where it ends. They're woodcuts, there are six of them. Each one of them is eight feet high by four feet wide. The images are stacked to symbolize the idea that each generation works hard to elevate the next generation. One generation can reach things that were out of reach for previous generations. You work really hard to lift your children, and I kind of did the same thing, the last one with my daughters, my daughters are above the things that I do for a living. So the imagery at the bottom is what I do and how I make living. And on top of that are these teddy bears that represent my daughters. And the idea there is that my ceiling is their floor, and I'm going to work really hard, and wherever I finish off, they get to start from. They get to continue and go for it. And there's a lot of things that I'd like to do that, realistically, I'm just not going to be able to because of where my life is. I'm 25 years old, and realistically, there's things I won't be able to accomplish and I want my daughters to go through that, there's bridges that I want to build and things that I want to knock down that they'll be able to just walk right through. And I think that that's really important. And not enough people think like that, especially in the younger generation. We're very selfish people. All of us are, I mean, I am, everybody. And it's important. Once I had my daughter, I was able to look at her and realize like, 'Oh, my God, I'm just a part of a larger thing. It's not about me, it's not about anything. I'm just a person. I'm just another one of these millions of people who have lived and died.' And it's about her now, now that I have her, it's what can I do to better her life? How can I help her? That's really what "The Endless Endeavor" is about. It's called "The Endless Endeavor" because generationally, the family will continue forever and ever. You continuously do the best you can for future generations.

Miranda Metcalf  And every parent, no matter when they're born, that one thread of hope is that your life will be better than mine, when they're looking at their kids. And so when you say the images are stacked, like I've seen the prints, but for people who haven't, you're using these icons to represent different family members, different concepts, and they're literally stacked like as if they're balancing on each other from the floor to the ceiling on these eight foot wood cuts. Is that right?

Ben Munoz  Yes. And I try to, in some cases, because I know who I'm talking about, so in some cases, I stack things to look fragile. For the idea of really how fragile all of this is. It really just takes one person to decide, I don't care about anything but me, or I don't want to try, or I don't want to do this, and that attitude sends the whole thing crumbling down and starting over. So they're literally stacked, it's one object on top of the next on top of the next on top of the next. Because I think whether we realize it or not, we're really standing on the shoulders of people that are going under appreciated. The only reason I'm in America and I'm able to be a full time artist is because my grandfather somehow had the courage at 19 to leave his friends, family, everything that he knew, to come to a country because it was better for  the future generation. He was like, 'There's no opportunity here, there's nothing, and I'm just going to go for it.' And so many times I forget that. "The Endless Endeavor," doing this project and spending that time, has really cemented that in my mind, of like, my existence is owed to people who, in society's eyes, are probably lesser than me, you know? Because you can kind of look and go, 'Oh, that person's a laborer, that person's this or that.' But because of those people's sacrifice, I'm able to have these opportunities, I'm able to be in America, I'm able to have a full time job. I'm able to have these shows and travel and really live out my dream. I couldn't do this if he wouldn't have come to America. It would have been impossible.

Miranda Metcalf  And I know from chatting with you before that the kind of challenges that your grandfather faced were just things that I think anyone in our generation, we would face one of them, and we'd be like, 'Well, that didn't work.' 

Ben Munoz  Yeah. 'I'm out of here, bye!' 

Miranda Metcalf  But I wonder if you want to speak to that, because it's kind of incredible, just the different things that he went through, even to be established enough to give his children a better life here.

Ben Munoz  Well, my grandfather went through a lot of crazy stuff that, like you said, when I hear about it, I'm just like, 'Where did you find the strength to keep going, dude?' Like, I would have quit. Two of the things that I think about a lot is, one, one time when he first came here, he was illegal. And he wanted to kind of move up in what he was doing, he was a laborer, he was laying cement and stuff like that on a bridge project. And he wanted to move up and be a supervisor, so he was working as hard as he could. He'd show up early, and he would do stuff. And you'd work in crews, and the other guys were kind of getting upset that he was out-working them. He was making them look bad. And they found out that he was illegal, and they figured that the best solution was to just tell somebody that he was illegal, get rid of him, and then they don't look bad anymore. So that's what they did. And he got deported literally for just working hard, just trying his best at this job. And he got sent back to Mexico. And I can only imagine waking up and just being there and being like, 'What on earth? I was doing the best that I could,' and just getting thrown back. And that's something that - and I understand that he was illegal, and I understand that there are laws and stuff like that. But I also don't understand, because he's a human being. And this is all kind of... it's just earth. I don't want to sound super hippyish, but... and the piece that is about him is actually titled "Illegal Human." Because when you say something like that, you understand the absurdity. And I feel like we use different titles and different things like that to dehumanize people, right? We say "immigrants" or "refugees," but you don't call them "human beings." Because if you did that, everybody would feel sympathy, because it's the truth. They're human beings. So it's titled "Illegal Human" just because I can only imagine the things that he went through. Also just not understanding - 19, he's younger than me! I'm not sure I would be understanding. I would probably just be angry at the world. Like, I'm just trying so hard, and they don't want me there because of where I was born. Because I was born a few miles too south, I can't partake in all of this stuff. It's like I'm not a human being! And it's crazy.

Miranda Metcalf  Part of it that I think about is, I read an article a few days ago, I guess, that was pointing out, when you look at this from a colonial perspective as well, the people of Mexico have always been here. And then in just the last couple hundred years, the colonizers came in and said, 'All right, there's a line here now, you're not allowed to cross it.' And you look at the millennia of history before that, and that's not to say that Indigenous people didn't have their own territories and all of that, but speaking to that particular line, that one that is the focus of so much drama and pain and atrocities and all of these awful things that have been happening, thanks to policies in the Trump administration. That's the line that we're talking about now. And that's the one that the people who came in with the... yeah, just - oh, man, I'm getting mad. Okay. But I think you know what I'm saying, just that that is something that happened by the invading colonizers to create that particular line that, now, people are suffering from. So it is extremely complex, as I think you've touched on, that idea that's like, okay, yes, it is technically illegal to do that. That is someone breaking the law. But it's so much more than that, as well, and there's histories and families and all kinds of things to keep in mind. So, yeah. And so that's sort of the imagery, and then the blocks are installed, and they're actually installed outside, right? So they're not even actually inside a building. They're things that anyone could see if they wanted to walk by the building.

Ben Munoz  Yeah, they're on the outside of the Art Center of Corpus Christi. And they sealed the blocks somehow. I don't know how, but I went out there for the ribbon cutting, and when I got into town, I saw them for the first time and they were gleaming and shiny, and I could touch them. And they're almost waxy. So they're protected, and they're outside 24/7, 365 days a year, they're there, rain, shine, so you can see them anytime. And those are the blocks, and the prints I have with me. And my wife and I are actually taking care of all the solo shows right now. So we're touring them around. And we've got some shows planned, we actually just finished the first solo show here in Dallas at the Milde Gallery. And that ran for about a month. And that was really good. We had really good responses. And it's fun to get all of them in one room, because like you said, they're massive. They're eight feet high, four feet wide. And when you get all of them next to each other, I mean, it just swallows you. It's like an installation almost. You walk in, and I mean, the wall is gone. It's disappeared, the prints are so big. And it's incredible to see them together like that, and then chronologically, and it's great to be able to share that story and give those artist talks. Because I feel like it's an important message, especially in the social climate of today, I think that it's something that needs to be said and talked about and brought up.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. And how long were you working on the project?

Ben Munoz  I worked on that thing for I think like 18 months or something like that. Yeah, it was pretty crazy. At the beginning, I had a budget. So I hired some people, and I had some volunteers. And that's when we were really moving. I was able to, like, 'Hey, you do this, you do this.' And we were able to fly through the thing. But I was irresponsible with the money, and budget ran out. So I did it all myself. So I did that for a while. I had an apprentice named Braulio, and he helped me so much. That's how long I was on this thing, is he started and finished a full apprenticeship with me. And we were working on the blocks the whole time. And he's really an incredible printmaker now, people should totally go follow him, he's insane. So he helped me a lot, and through all of that happening, it was about 18 months of me working on that project on and off with the bulk of the work happening the last probably four months. You know when you're approaching a deadline, and you're like, 'Oh, I really got to do this!' And you hit that gas. You have this extra gear that you didn't know was there that you kind of shift into.

Miranda Metcalf  Totally. I think that's a good place to kind of close out for the time being, but where can people find out more about you, see your work? I know we mentioned your Instagram and your website, but do you want to drop any names of some galleries or maybe even some places in some cities where people could see what Casa Press is up to?

Ben Munoz  If you're in Dallas, you can go to Rec Shop, if you're in Fort Worth, you can go to Queue. If you're in Austin, you can go to Apparition, it's like right in University Square, that's a cool shop. In San Antonio, you can go to Alta Vista, which is a really cool shop right downtown on Broadway Street. In Santa Fe, New Mexico, you can go to Hecho el Mano, which is also where I'm having a solo show at the end of this month. So I'm not sure when it's going to air, but at the end of this month, I think on the 26th is the opening, and then the show will run into July. And that's "The Endless Endeavor." So you can actually go and see that. And then afterwards, we're bringing the show back to Texas, and we're going to be down at the Art Center of Corpus Christi, where the blocks are, for my third and final solo show of the year. And you can catch "The Endless Endeavor" there too.

Miranda Metcalf  And that one is going to be August 28th through September 28th. I'll put links to all of that in the show notes, along with the dates where you can come and see the blocks in person. And yeah, thank you so much for braving the apocalypse of data and power in Dallas and having this parking lot conversation. It was really great, and I hope we can do it again and dive into more of all that good stuff. 

Ben Munoz  I would love that. All right, talk to you later. 

Miranda Metcalf  Well, that's our show for this week. Join me again in two weeks' time when my guest will be Tanekeya Word, a Milwaukee based visual artist, printmaker, and educator whose work centers around black geographies, exploring afrofuturism, black aesthetics, black hair, black identity, and black woman and girlhood. She's also the founder of Black Women of Print, a space where intergenerational black woman printmakers can come together. We had an incredible chat, and you will not want to miss this one. This episode, like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing help from Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Webber. I'll see you in two weeks.