episode seventeen | jamaal barber

Published 26 June 2019

Miranda Metcalf  Hello, print friends, and welcome to the 17th episode of Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend), the internet's number one printmaking podcast. I'm your host, Miranda Metcalf. I release an episode every two weeks, and on the off weeks, I publish an article on the Pine Copper Lime website, which features images and maybe a bit more information about the artist I'm going to interview. Quick bit of housekeeping before we dive in: if you're listening to this episode the week it comes out, I'm in the middle of a great giveaway on the Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) Instagram. I partnered with Matthieu Coulanges, who designs stunning handmade printmaking tools from burins to barens. Everyone I know who's used these beauties has nothing but amazing things to say about them. So head on over to the Pine Copper Lime Instagram (@helloprintfriend) now and enter for your chance to win a 150 euro gift certificate to the online store. Looking for other ways to get more involved with PCL? Think about joining the Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) Patreon page. I have levels starting at just $1 a month and thank yous like totes, stickers, postcards, and personal serenades. And, I realized this the other day, I don't say this enough: thank you so much to everyone who is already a member. It means the world to me that you're saying, 'Hey, I like Pine Copper Lime, and I would like it if it kept existing.' And thanks to you all, I've reached that critical tipping point where I'm now officially not actively losing money every time I put out an episode. So again, your support is amazing, and I truly couldn't do it without you. Also, don't forget to check out the Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) online print gallery. There's some great prints there from Southeast Asia and Australia. Of course, as always, there's a link in the show notes to all of this. My guest this week is Jamaal Barber: printmaker, curator, collaborator, podcast host, grad student, husband, and father. Jamaal offers his insights into what it takes to be a successful artist, his own story of taking the leap from weekend art fairs to full time artist, and his print practice making work about all aspects of black life in America. He also gives us a look into his current exhibition, titled "400: A Collective Flight of Memory," in which Barber has collaborated with 22 artists as a reflection on the collective black experience during the 400 years since the first slave ships arrived off the coast of Virginia. And it's on exhibition now at the Aviation Community Cultural Center in Atlanta through July 15, 2019. I have to say, I was a little nervous interviewing another podcast host, but Jamaal is a spectacular and generous guest with incredible insights to share. So I can't wait to hear what you all think. And without further ado, here's Jamaal. Hey, Jamaal, how's it going? 

Jamaal Barber  Hi, how you doing? 

Miranda Metcalf  I'm good. Thank you for joining me.

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, I'm a fan of the podcast, so I'm very excited to be included in my printmaker family. Talk about stuff.

Miranda Metcalf  You are very much in the printmaker family. We're very happy to have you here. I have to say, maybe I was a little bit more nervous to do this interview than maybe any other one that I've done. Because, as we'll get into, one of the many hats that you wear is being a podcast host. So I feel a little bit like I've invited the sensei into my studio or something. 

Jamaal Barber  Just a fellow traveler, think about it like that. 

Miranda Metcalf  I like that. I like that a lot.

Jamaal Barber  You probably know just as much about it as I do. 

Miranda Metcalf  I think you and I both had the same experience where we just were like, 'Man, I really wish a podcast like this existed. I think I'm just gonna go make it even though I've never done anything like this before.' 

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, that sounds about right. That was basically what I did. 

Miranda Metcalf  You do many things, including hosting the Studio Noize podcast that I want to chat about more in detail later. But you're an artist, you're a curator, you're a collaborator, you're a father, you're a grad student. Am I missing anything? Like, that's a lot.

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, that is a lot. It gets more intimidating when you say it like that. It is a lot. Yeah, that's funny, cuz I do think about it sometimes, that every time I get a chance, I always think, alright, I'm gonna not do this thing. But I end up picking up like two other things. So I never really get my time back. So that's kind of the curse of ambition, I guess. I guess that's what it is.

Miranda Metcalf  Do you have more than 24 hours in a day somehow?

Jamaal Barber  No, I wish I did. I wish I did. I'm barely holding it together every time somebody sees me. I'm just running around and running around until I go to sleep. That's all it is.

Miranda Metcalf  As they say in Australia, Cheers, mate. I hear you. But yeah, so that's sort of how I would introduce you, but I'd love to hear your introduction of yourself and sort of how you would define the who you are, where you are, what you do interview questions.

Jamaal Barber  I think, first and foremost, I always describe myself as a printmaker. I think that's the one thing, even beyond just being an artist, because I did different types of art before I started printmaking. But when I started in printmaking, I started screenprinting, something in my mind clicked, that this is the thing, this is who I am and what I should be doing, and it felt really natural. So first, I always start by saying I'm a printmaker, first and foremost. And then I often forget that I do the podcast, because the podcast is so much about me just enjoying the company of other artists and that is kind of the most pure, fun thing that I do, is talking to people on the podcast. Even though it is a lot of work with scheduling and finding time and editing. My cohost Jasmine does a lot of the editing. But the podcast is just about the most fun thing I know I can just go to and enjoy. Everything else is work. Grad school is work, being a father is work, being a husband is work. But just sitting back, having a conversation, enjoying the company of one random other artist, I think that's probably the best thing that I do for myself. I enjoy printmaking, though. Don't get me wrong, I love printmaking. I love it too much. People don't understand how much... going into the print studio - I work at Atlanta Printmakers Studio down here in Atlanta. And it's like my favorite place. Like I feel so at home while I'm there. I don't know, it's just something about being in there and working like that that I do love, love, love.

Miranda Metcalf  Wow, I feel like that is such a beautiful theme in this podcast, which is that a lot of the guests just talk about that magic moment with printmaking when - and it's often different media, you know, someone says, 'I didn't even care about it till I picked up a litho crayon.' Or when I had Ali Norman on, she told the story where she was in a litho class first, and the whole time she was in the litho class, she kept looking through into the etching studio. She didn't pay any attention. So there's just certain media or even the community or something where people just kind of are floating through life, and then printmaking hits them, and it's just that, 'Oh, I've come home.' And I love that so much about what we do. And I love that it's a theme in the podcasts.

Jamaal Barber  I think for me, if you haven't heard the story, I started printmaking, I went to Binders, which is an art store here in Atlanta, to get more paints because I was doing watercolors and acrylic painting and all that kind of stuff at the time. And so I went and I saw a screenprinting demo. And it was just sitting there, maybe it was like an hour and a half, maybe. And there was something about looking at him doing it that it just clicked. I just figured it out, like I knew what I could do. I knew what I could produce. I knew if I did this, I could do that. Like you figure out all the different variety of things you could do in that moment, and then it's like, that's me. I can do that. And also that day, instead of buying my watercolors and stuff, I bought a screen. And I bought all the emulsion and all of the equipment and I was doing screen printing out of my closet. Did it for years, like I had it perfectly set up. I took my daughter's Elmo chair and like a 300 watt light bulb, and I had it rigged up on this little ironing board, it was like, exactly 18 inches from the screen, it took me 22 minutes to shoot a screen. If you can imagine 22 minutes, sitting there watching this light bulb. It was terrible. So when I came to Atlanta Printmakers Studio and it was like a minute and a half, I was like, 'What? You can make a screen in a minute and a half?' Yeah, so that's how I started screen printing. So I remember taking a class at East Carolina. That's where I got my undergrad degree in graphic design. I took a printmaking class there, but I didn't really care about it. I remember doing woodcuts, and we did... I think it was an intaglio project. I barely remember that class. But I do kind of remember the woodcuts. And that's when I started doing woodcuts. And that's when I really fell in love with printmaking. So that's basically what I do now, it's like woodcuts with screenprint enhancements or embellishments or all kinds of stuff like that.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, yeah. Cuz I was a little surprised when you're saying that it was sort of screenprinting that was the bug that bit you, because I really associate you as a woodcut artist, and I know you use screenprint. But I feel like woodcut is is what I think about when I think about your work.

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, I think that's what's natural to me. Like, it's hard now, I've started, I'm in grad school, so I started doing stone lithography. And getting back to drawing. And even that process, for me, is tough because I look at everything like a woodcut. There's just a certain way that you are kind of subtracting from the surface to get relief. I think like that when I'm drawing now. So I'm having to switch my mentality up completely. But like I say, I fell into it. And it's just natural for me now.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, and I think that is something that screenprint and woodcut have in common, is that you're thinking about your image in these blocks of color. And these layering of blocks of color. Which is, it's like you've been doing the Tango, and then you're asked to Salsa or something. It's like a way of really altering how you think of image making. And I can imagine it gets really easy to just fall into that pattern, especially once you're comfortable with it, and then being asked to sort of reverse it a little bit and go back to just drawing must be interesting.

Jamaal Barber  It's very difficult. Especially when I started woodcutting, I came from watercolor, which is all layering and gradients and kind of laying it down. So when you switch to screen printing, it's kind of the same too, but you think about something being bold, like bold, graphic, like how punchy can you make it? How in your face, impressive, big, bold kind of thing you can do? Where watercolor is very delicate and kind of flowy and all these gradients and stuff. So I don't know why I was trying to be a watercolor artist so hard. Like it really didn't ever fit me. I tried, I tried. It's too hard.

Miranda Metcalf  That's so funny how we kind of get these ideas in our head sometimes and then they just sort of stay there, maybe just because they've been there all along. So you said that you'd gone to your undergrad for graphic design. Is that right? Were you always visually minded, were you a kid growing up who was really interested in art? Tell me about the early days of Jamaal and a paintbrush.

Jamaal Barber  I didn't actually paint until I got to college. Because before that - I grew up in Littleton, North Carolina. And if you have ever been in Littleton, North Carolina - well, no, I take it back. Nobody has been in Littleton, North Carolina except for me. Right? So it's a small place in the middle of nowhere. It used to take me 45 minutes to go to the grocery store. Like, there's nothing there. So it was mostly... the minute we moved there, this was like elementary school, but the minute we moved there I wanted to leave. So it always became drawing as a way to not be bored or to be somewhere else or to do something else, but we didn't have a lot of money. So I couldn't afford paints and brushes and all this other stuff. So I was basically drawing, pen and paper, like sketchbooks. I'm still a big sketchbook person, even to this day, because it's just a natural way of kind of expressing yourself when nobody else is around. And there's nothing else to do. Or, you know, you've rode your bike as much as you want to ride your bike for the day and it's too hot, you just don't want to do all this other stuff. So that was kind of the beginning for me. So I didn't get access to - I actually didn't meet a real working artist until I was in my 20s. So it wasn't even, to me, it wasn't even possible to be this person that makes art, only art, for a living. Because so much about being in small town South is about surviving, right. You want to get you - I always tell this story, you want to get you some land, and you want to get you a trailer, and you want to be able to get gas in your car and fix your car when it go wrong. Like, that's kind of the dream of most of the people there. And people want more, but it's not there. So what do you do, right? You have to go somewhere else. And most people don't want to go somewhere else. They want to stay by their family and be happy. So dealing with that, it's very hard to conceive of being an artist as a full time thing. So it became very new and very real when I went to college, when I actually saw people that made fantastic, amazing art. For real. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is what they did for their entire life. You know, some of them were teachers, but still. You teach and make art? That's incredible.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, you're still just being around art all day.

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, you're still an artist. And you tell somebody, in Littleton or any small town, whenever you tell somebody that you that you're an artist, you always get somebody that says, 'I used to draw.' That's the biggest thing. They used to draw. And they like to make things and they like to create, but their life is not set up for that. Like, my life is set up where I have to pay for this car. So I got to go work at the hospital or the gas station or whatever restaurant is new in town. You got to live, you got to work in the grocery store, you got to do all these other things, you're a mechanic, you fix cars, whatever you do. But art is a luxury thing. And it's just not in the vocabulary of people that live like that. So it wasn't in my vocabulary, even though I needed it. Now I can look back and see that I needed art, because I had more to say than I was allowed to. Or than I had the opportunity to, is a better way to put it. So that was my early life. So being in college, right, I actually went to college fully intending to be a business major. And I was fine. I would have done that. But I took this one drawing class as an elective. And that first day, soon as I took it, I was like, 'I gotta call my momma and tell her I'm gonna be an art major.' Like, how am I going to tell her this? She's gonna be really disappointed. But she ended up being cool with it because they saw me drawing. I used to draw a lot. I drew all the time, so they saw me drawing a lot.

Miranda Metcalf  And moms know. 

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, she knew before I knew. Put it like that.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, my husband had kind of a similar experience where he went into college, and he was going to be a ceramics engineer. And he was taking the tour. And he went to Alfred University in Alfred, New York. Incredible printmaking studio there. He was on the tour and he was with his dad, and they walked through the printmaking studio. And Tim didn't even say anything. And his dad just turned to him and said, 'Please don't switch your major.' And then, you know, he had to make that phone call. 

Jamaal Barber  Especially when you start doing it, it's really nothing else like making art. It's hard to explain it to people, like my wife is a chemist. So I imagine that she feels the same way about mixing chemicals that I do about carving wood, like it's got to be the same, because it's like, what else could I do? At this point, what else could I really do that I would be satisfied at? And I cannot imagine doing anything else. And so that's where you start at, like now it's, how can I do this and make money? So there you go. That's the rest of my life. From that day, there's the rest of my life.

Miranda Metcalf  One of the things I really appreciate about Studio Noize is when you and your costar -what's Jasmine's last name? 

Jamaal Barber  Williams. Jasmine Nicole. Yeah, what's up, Jasmine? I know she's listening. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. Hi, Jasmine. So when you guys talk about art or the art scene, you also talk about these really practical ideas as well in it. And I think that's so important for artists to hear, because it's not this totally head in the clouds, theoretical, praxis, blah, blah, blah. I love it when you guys will sometimes just talk about nuts and bolts advice for an artist. I think it was your most recent one before you guys went on break, it was just the two of you, and you just were saying all of this great stuff that I was like, 'This episode should be required listening for any art undergrad!' Because I think that you do have a great balance of being in love with art, being in love with printmaking, anyone can hear that from the way you talk about it. But you also have this other side where you're like, 'How do I make this work?' I know that it's like, you can't just lock yourself away in the print studio all day and just make and then sit back and complain about why no one's giving you any money. So just about like, this is how you get yourself seen, and this is how you do that. Which is totally a conversation that needs to happen more in art school and in the art world in general. But I think sometimes we get these ideas that like, 'Oh, you want to make money? I guess you're not a real artist.'

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And grad school is a lot like that, too. Not necessarily, but they want to make sure you know the things about art. Which is cool, which is exactly why you go to school, right? I'm learning a lot, just being in school and having the time to learn lithography, stone lithography. I can sit with it and have my own set of stones I can pick and grind and mess up. Like all this stuff is mad practical. But I was a full time artist for five years before I got into grad school. And I was a "working artist," quote-unquote, when... let's see, I moved to Atlanta and I ended up - I got a lot of different jobs - and then I ended up in the graphic design job. And I had that for seven years. And then when I got laid off from that job was kind of the point where I was like, okay. I'd been doing art shows on the weekend, I got into the Decatur Art Festival show down here. I was doing art walks, I was getting my name out there. Like we always tell people to do it. And then it just came to that point where after I got laid off from the graphic design job, I could not imagine myself going and getting back in the process of applying for a job, trying to appease this other person to please allow me to make a living and take care of my family for your peanuts when you're making however many thousands of dollars off my work. And I know that when I talk to people, it's never the art that makes it hard. Right? The art is the fun part, the making, sitting in your house, even if people don't have a studio, if they just sit at their coffee table in their living room and they're painting, they feel good in that moment. But then what do you do? Because it's not enough. You have to do so many other things to get back to that moment of 'This is what I love to do and this is what I enjoy.' Like the practical matter is, how do you get more time in the studio? A lot of those people, and it probably comes from the story I told you before, how everybody used to draw. They used to draw, and they used to enjoy it. And they really enjoyed it, and they would if they had the opportunity, but they couldn't figure out how to make it work. And so that's always the biggest problem that I've run into with anybody that I meet, just in coming to APS, Atlanta Printmakers Studio, or that come to those art walks I used to go on outside of Marietta neighborhoods and stuff like that. That is always the issue. It's always the other things that get in the way. It's like the perseverance, the stick-with-it-ness, and that's not a word. But it's kind of that thing where, how do you hold on when it's absolutely not benefiting you immediately in any shape, form, or fashion other than emotional happiness? And you can't buy anything with emotional happiness. So what do you do? You don't give it up. That's my biggest thing to people, is don't give it up. Let's sit down and figure out, what do you have to do and what can you do to get it going? It might force you to get out your comfort zone, but you have to get out your comfort zone in order to do it. Like, anybody that's ever had a booth at a festival know, you're just sitting here in the sun, and it's hot. And people are just walking by and not paying any attention to you. You have to do that. You have to sit there, being looked at and gawked at by hundreds of people that don't care about anything about you or your life, until that one person that comes by that does, right? And you just have to hold on til you get to that person. So how can I help you, and I love people, too. And I love artists. And I know how hard it is because it was hard for me. It was very hard for me to just sit there, especially the type of work that I make. It's not like super acceptable everywhere you go. When you're doing art fairs and stuff like that, if people do birds or trees, or like, you know, any innocuous thing that people can like, see and just walk by like, 'Yo, I like this butterfly, here you go, take some money.' I mean, I'm making work about race relations and black identity. Like it's really not everybody's cup of tea. And so how do I take care of myself, my mental health, to get to that point. And that's way more important, then, in terms of the practicality of being an artist. That's the hard part. Everybody can make. Everybody can draw. I'm not the best drawer that I know by far. A lot of the people that I know that are really good at drawing don't even make a living off their artwork. Because they just haven't figured that out. They haven't figured that part out. And that is the hard part. So I want to help, so when I see people that I know, and I don't do this for everybody. But I do it for the people that I know only need an extra push. Not the people that you need to... like Humpty Dumpty, fell off the wall, you can't put him back together, I don't want to help the people that I can't put together, that just are not emotionally ready to deal with the type of things, or you got to always piece them together with tape and duct tape and glue. I'm looking at people that fell down off the wall, and they just have a little crack and they just need to hold it together just a little while longer until they can find their audience. And that's always the hard part about art.

Miranda Metcalf  What would you say to someone who's maybe listening to this and feeling like they just have a little crack right now? Like, what do you put in that emotional space in between feeling like you've just fallen and finding an audience?

Jamaal Barber  I think that for most of the people that I've talked to, and you might get this on your podcast too, is that successful people keep doing it. Even when it's not fun, even when it's not comfortable, even when you don't have money. A person that would make art when they only have enough money to either go to the movies or make art, and they choose to make art. That person will be the one that will eventually find an audience. And I just say eventually, because I don't know when that is. Nobody can tell you when it is. We will never know. I didn't sell anything at all the art walks and stuff I went to. But I kept making art, because I kept thinking that. So to me, and most people that do end up being successful that I know, have it in them that I just have to make my art better. If that's your conclusion at the end of all the obstacles you get to, and you say, 'I have to make my art better. Because if my art is better, then it'll get somebody's attention.' So the people that jump to that conclusion will eventually succeed. And it's the people that make all the other conclusions, and you kind of have to talk them out of it. Like, no, it's not the shirt you wore. You know, it's not the walls that you got for your booth. No, it's not that. They'll blame every other thing. 'Well, it was raining that day, and then I woke up late.' And it's not all of those things. It's like, if you can always lean into your artwork, then that'll be what sustains you because ultimately, that's what makes all artists feel good, is the artwork. I mean, no artist that I know enjoys accounting or marketing or any of this other stuff. It's always the artwork. So I always tell people to somehow focus on the art, and whatever conversation I have with them is usually art-focused. So for instance, if you went to a festival and you didn't sell anything, my question would be, what could you change for the next time that might give you a little bit better sales? Could your signage be better? Could you have more lower priced work available? Could you have presented it better? It's all those type of things. The things that you can actually change, right? Because you cannot change who walks in that booth. You can't change the weather, you can't change all the other stuff. You can't change you being beside a super popular artist that does something completely different from you. So his crowd that he's drawing, he does flowers, and you do cows. So you're surrounded by people that like flowers, but you don't do flowers. You can't change that. You just have to be like happy and satisfied with it. It's a hard thing to tell somebody. So believe me, I've sat down and spent years feeling bad. And I don't want people to feel bad. That's ultimately what it comes down to. I know how I felt in that situation, when I'm making this art that I think is great, and nobody responded to it. It is a low feeling. And I don't mean to make it so like emotional and stuff like that. But most art is very emotional. You create from an emotional place. So it emotionally affects you when you don't think people like you. Not just that people don't like your work, that they don't like you. You are a bad person, sitting here making these cows when you obviously know everybody wants flowers, like, what's wrong with you? Those type of feelings are super natural, and they're not healthy. And there are ways that we can talk about it, and I can support you, and continue on your journey. Because you never know. Like, you couldn't have told those people that walked past me at the Marietta art walks that I will be making pieces that sell for the amount of money that they do now. They would never know that. They're just like, 'Oh, you know, him over there, making that black stuff.'

Miranda Metcalf  No, I love all of that. And yeah, I was hoping I could like - I was hoping I could trick you into saying some of that good stuff! I did it! 

Jamaal Barber  Oh, yeah, I get to going on that stuff. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, I love it. No, it's one of my favorite things.

Jamaal Barber  Because I love artists, y'all. It's nothing like talking to, as a creative, talking to somebody else that doesn't see the world as it is. And think that's what we all do, in some shape, form, or fashion, we envision and create a different world than what we see. We take in these external stimuli, and we filter it through us. So what comes out is us. And lt's a very particular way of seeing the world. I feel like most of the time when I connect to other people, I know them in a way that I don't really know regular people, if that makes sense. Regular people that just go to the nine to five. l don't understand the nine to five. I didn't understand it when I was there. You know, people that work for 20 years and never make anything, like you never even want to make anything? Oh, man, that's tough. I feel sorry for them.

Miranda Metcalf  How do you wake up in the morning?

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, like, why? Why bother, yo? I love artists. And I want to support everybody the way that I wish I would have been supported. Even as a kid, even looking back at growing up in Littleton, people knew I can draw and they acknowledged me, but they couldn't support me. They didn't have a concept of feeding into my creativity or my being as an artist. They couldn't imagine it. So I didn't get it. So for a long time, there was an emptiness that I had to fill myself, eventually. But now when I started to understand that feeling, I realized, I look back at some people and realize that that's exactly the same thing they're going through. That's how you used to be an artist. That's how you used to draw. And that's the sad thing. Like, you should still be drawing. Why would you stop? That kind of thing.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, I was talking to a friend the other day who is a writer and she's just kind of recently gotten in this situation where she's been able to quit her nine to five, and now she's just kind of bouncing around the States and Canada going from residency to residency. And she worked really, really hard to get in a situation where she could do that. So she applied for all the grants and she saved all the money. It wasn't like, 'I'm gonna go to happy hour on Fridays with the work guys afterwards,' she's like, 'Nope, that money is going into savings, and I'm going into the studio to write.' And I have so much admiration for her, but what we were talking about was the people who don't understand sort of creating extra work for yourself. When you talk to people who are just satisfied with a nine to five, they're like, 'Have you been following Game of Thrones?' Or I don't know, they ask you something. And you're like, 'Oh, no, I haven't had time.' And they're like, 'What have you been doing?' And you're like, 'Well, you know, I make art and I run this podcast.' And they just sort of look at you like you're crazy. Like, why would you do something when you didn't have to? It's so fundamentally different brain function, it seems like, for someone who can't conceive of why you would want to work all the time, when you didn't have to. It's just like, why would you do that?

Jamaal Barber  But that's exactly what it is. It's working all the time. And also, a lot of people don't have the concept of enjoying work. Enjoying what you do. If people ask me, what do I do when I'm not making art, it's like, I'm thinking about making art. That's what I'm doing.

Miranda Metcalf  Right. I'm planning out what I'm going to make next.

Jamaal Barber  I'm hoping I can go back. So I mean, that's the whole point. So some people don't have that type of enjoyment in their life, or they get it from different ways. And that's what I'm always fascinated with, too, is what do you do for fun? Like, what do you do, not just for fun, but to fulfill yourself. And it can be anything, it doesn't have to be making art, like you can just be an avid reader and really enjoy it. And  that's super cool, too. But it's got to be something. And so, you know, most artists, that something is making art, and you just got to find a way to get back to it.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, I'd love to take this transition to talk more specifically about your work, because we touched on it a little bit. If I can quote you back to yourself from your website, you say, "My aim is to create a new kind of propaganda to spread messages that speak to all aspects of black life." And so I think I was I was thinking about, from what I've seen of your work, it's definitely, you can tell, it's a reflection of black identity. And I wanted to ask you, at what point did you realize, this is what I want my message to be? This is what moves me in this way, that I need to create work about this? Was that always present in your practice or was it something that you came to? How did this this come to be your inspiration?

Jamaal Barber  I think I have to tell you two stories. And it will sum up the whole thing. First is, anybody that knows me from high school or way back know that I've always been extra sensitive about racial stuff. And that's just because I can't look at the history of what happened in America and not see it as a direct indictment on myself and how I'm going to be viewed, fairly or unfairly. And so I've always been angry about that. My best friend Mike from fourth grade, he'll tell you that when I saw the movie Rosewood, I don't know if you've ever seen that movie, Rosewood, but the town of Rosewood, there was a white woman lied and said that a black man had attacked her. And so they basically came to this black town called Rosewood and basically killed all the men and were coming after the women, like it was a big racial attack, it was this huge, huge thing. After I saw that movie, I couldn't talk to people for like, two weeks, because I was so angry and so worked up. And so I know that the way that people see race, I know that I'm the person that will suffer any consequences from race being in the equation. Like as a black man, I will ultimately be the person that suffers. So if you look at people being pulled over by police, auto traffic tickets and stuff, across every state, every city, every region in America, black people are pulled over at a rate two to three times higher than a white person. And it's always either two things, either black people can inherently not drive - naturally, in our DNA, we just are impossible, we can't learn how to drive - or something is being done to us. More than likely, something is being done to us. So that's how I've felt my entire life, and I'm always pushing back against whatever stereotype it is, because most of the time it's not true. And if you bothered to give me the benefit of humanity, then you would see that everything that's happening is perfectly natural. But often in that equation, you won't get that. These assumptions kind of stick with people. And I have to suffer with it, like I have to be followed around the store. And when I got money, and I'm looking to buy something, and I'm still followed around as if I'm trying to steal. That's ridiculous. It's ridiculous for other people to have to go through it. So empathy is a big thing for me, where I don't like to see my people suffer. So a lot of times, especially growing up in Littleton, North Carolina, it was basically 95% black. My school was 95% black all the way through high school. I didn't really talk to a white person in a meaningful conversation, not like I didn't know any, but not in a meaningful person to person conversation until I got to college. So I'm, what, 18, 19 years old by that time? So that has skewed my point of view, where I know that black people are human, I know that a lot of things that are attributed to negative stereotypes about race are just not true or complete misunderstandings, or are being judged against a standard that we have never been able to live by. Even to the point of where I lived in Littleton, North Carolina, there was a black area. In Littleton, North Carolina, in 1989, there's a black area. How do you think that black area got there? You think we just all just decided to live with each other? Just out of the blue one year, like '87, we're just like, 'We're all gonna live together.' Nah, that's not what happened. So you got to understand the history. So the second thing that happened was, when I did get laid off from my graphic design job, I sat down and thought, when I got my severance package, it was like, this is the one chance that I'm ever going to have to be a full time artist. To really live in it and be happy. And so you got to figure out - I had done the shows, and I wasn't being super successful, I was still making art. And I was just thinking, like, if this is going to go down in flames, what do I want to be doing? What kind of work do I want to be making if I'm going to make stuff for the next year and nobody buys it? What is going to make me absolutely happy? So I decided, whenever I close my eyes, whatever I see will be what I make. And so what I saw was my people, my black people, being human, being free, struggling against oppression, fighting against the system, still being themselves, and being beautiful and being proud and being righteous. That's what I saw. So I said, if this is gonna go down in flames, if this is the only chance I'm ever gonna have, that's the type of work I'm gonna make. So that's what happened. So that's where it came from. And it worked.

Miranda Metcalf  I think that's such such a beautiful lesson in what kind of work really connects with people. And it's the work that's coming from the artist that is like, I love that turn of phrase you said, like, what do I see when I close my eyes? And it's like, it's when it's coming from this pure making. This pure drive of what's deep in your bones, a part of you that you're passionate about, it's a beautiful way to connect with other people.

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, and I was extra nervous about it, too. Because I mean, you're sitting there, you're bettin' the whole farm on making black art, it's like, that's probably not the smartest thing in the universe for you to do. But you know, this is what I'm gonna do. And I was extra surprised that when I did start making that and stopped... my work has steadily become more poignant and more direct about what I'm trying to say. "400" especially, the show, is just all about this blackness and kind of almost a thesis on what I feel about it. And so the more that I get into it, and more I start to tap into that thing... I think the more that people like it, all people, not just black people, and I don't make art just for black people. I make art that focuses on the humanity of individuals that happen to be black. Not - I take that back, they don't happen to be black, they are specifically black. And specifically human. And that's what I'm showing you, without cutting it for you. Like, I'm not sugarcoating it. I'm unapologetically showing these people in their humanity that you have to acknowledge. And one of the things that I had specifically thought was, because I know that race is such a barrier in America, the way that I present it has to be executed at a higher quality than I would think that I'm capable of doing. So I'm always pushing to be more special with how I produce my work. Like how my woodcuts look, the different layers that I'm adding on to it, I feel like it has to be more great, because I am dealing with such a tough topic for people. So hopefully, that's what people see that I'm doing.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, definitely. So something that I've wondered about when it comes to collecting, and collecting black artists, and trying to be sensitive to this pattern that can happen where someone who's a member of any minority is often asked to speak for the collective, you know? So, you know, sort of keeping that in mind, but it came up in what you were talking about, how you're making work about black identity, but not just for a black audience, is that a lot of times work about black identities, of course, has black bodies in it. And that absolutely make sense. And so as a white person, if I wanted to collect that - because I think it's beautiful, because I want to support the artist, because I want to be an ally, you know, whatever that motivation is - I have a certain, I don't know, maybe anxiety or sensitivity about, let's say, putting an image of a black woman framed on my wall. Because there's such a tradition of the exotification, objectification, of black bodies by white people. So maybe that's just sort of the question in and of itself, is that like, if I want to support and collect the art, is there something sort of inherently problematic about me then displaying it? Or if I have a connection to it, is it different? I'd just love to hear your thoughts on that sort of particular aspect of, I guess, just racial dynamic within art, within the world?

Jamaal Barber  It's an interesting question. Because you can appreciate artwork that has a black body in it, if you can appreciate the humanity of that figure. And so there really is no barrier between you collecting and displaying it if that's what you like. And kind of, in a way, you have to be confident in your own point of view, your own perspective, to challenge anybody that challenges you. I would say that. When people... let's see. I want to put it in a great way.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, sorry for putting you on the spot with a super heavy question.

Jamaal Barber  Oh, no, no, this is a fun question. I had this conversation about, in grad school, they were talking about whether or not the work that I was making, if they were the proper audience for it. And that was - I'm the only black person, it was two black people, but one in the third year, and it was me. There were other minorities in it, but most of the people identify as white. And so the thing is that this is the contract that we've signed to be in this space together, and critique each other's work. So my work is about race. So that's what you have to critique. That's what you got to contend with. And kind of whatever your work is about, is what I have to contend with. But I don't get to hide behind, 'Well, I'm a man, so I don't understand feminist work.' Or, 'I'm straight, so I don't understand gay work or homosexual, like, whatever you're talking about, I don't understand that. I'm a straight man. I can't work with it.' I don't hide behind that. That limits the true engagement of what we're trying to say. I don't think anybody's trying to make work in a vacuum. I don't want to make work in a vacuum, right? I don't want my work to only be bought by black people. To me, I'm making huge statements about humanity. So I want you to relate to it. I want you to look at one of my pieces and think, that is absolutely beautiful. That is absolutely beautiful, and I would like it in my house. I want you to have it in your house, I want you to show it in your house and be proud of it. And I want when somebody asks you, 'Why do you have these black people hanging in your house?' I want you to tell them exactly how you feel. That's what I would say. So I don't want you to succumb to the pressure of otherness. And that's kind of what it is, right, is that you have something that is not you in your house. Why? You know, do you deserve to have these black figures in your house? You know what I'm saying? So on that end, I would want you to be comfortable enough in how you feel about liking these figures or enjoying the black bodies or enjoying the artist, however they carve or however they paint stuff, right? Like Margaret Bowland. Margaret Bowland is a painter, she paints these black children, black little girls and stuff and all these different things. But she's a white woman. If a white person, this is a trick question, but if a white person was to buy a painting of a black person by a white person, does that eliminate the question that you're asking? Or is it different because it is from the white person? Do you see what I'm saying? Like, ultimately, that part of it should be inconsequential. Like you feel how you feel. And that's how you should feel. That's how everybody should feel. Like, I don't not show white people work in my house. That's ridiculous. Right? It doesn't make any sense. And so in that same notion, I think it's ridiculous for you not to show black people in your house, for you not to show work featuring a black figure that you think is great. You think it's great. That's your response to it, is you like it. And that's enough for all collectors. Because ultimately, that's the only thing that we're doing when people collect art, is that it speaks to them somehow, and reverberates in their soul to the point that they must possess it. And it doesn't get more visceral than that. So if I can make something that you as a white person, or any white person, sees and enjoys... white people like, one of the one of the pieces that I often sell that people really like, it's this piece called "To Be Free." So it's a black person woodcut and it has these hands pulling on him and looks like it's pulling on his shirt. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. Yeah, I know the one. 

Jamaal Barber  Yeah. So that's a strong piece. And it's talking about perseverance. Perseverance, it's not black perseverance. All of us can persevere. Maybe you persevering through something different, but these hands can be representative of whatever you want them to be. Like, this black figure can be any man. It doesn't have to be just a black man. Like, I can't relate to him because he's a black man, that doesn't make any sense. Oh, that was a good question. 

Miranda Metcalf  Oh good. Good, I'm glad. And I love what you're saying about how to give too much energy to it in that way is to sort of double down on the otherness, and to also double down on that extremely problematic notion that a human body is, by default, white. 

Jamaal Barber  Exactly. That there's no way for me to relate to it. Like it's impossible. Like, is it really impossible for a white man to relate to a black man going through something? I don't think so. Anybody that does think so, there's a problem with them, not with you. That's what I would say. Is that, I mean, if you think about it in terms of like television and stuff, most shows have white leads. So if I was to say that I would never relate to any show, I would not watch any TV. And that doesn't make any sense. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't make any sense. Like the same way people complain if like James Bond was black or something like that. That whole conversation. But I personally, I acknowledge the humanity of all people. And I specifically make my work to fight against people that would not acknowledge my humanity in return. And so that is the bar for me in all circumstances. And I just simply don't accept anything else. And that's how anybody should be. So if you collectin' black work and you like it, and the black artists are great, I think that's what the problem was with black artists now that are just now getting their due. Like, I talk about Charles White a lot. But Charles White was a phenomenal artist. He's probably one of the best draftsmen in American history. But he was not given the proper due because he was black. And he has a retrospective now that's traveling around. And it's a phenomenal show. It's amazing. He does incredible print work. Incredible, like mind blowing. Like the same kind of mind blowing as anybody else you've ever seen. He's probably better than them. And he couldn't get his due because of his blackness. And when I think of other black artists that would get into shows based on their work, and then be rejected from the show when they find out that you're black. Like, I can't remember the artist, but they got a letter in the mail after being accepted into a show. And the letter told them, 'Oh, we didn't know you were black. So now that you're black, we can't show your work here.' Even though they were in the contest and were in the show. So you know, there's all these kinds of issues that people have to contend with, that I simply... I don't acknowledge it. Like it doesn't, that doesn't make sense to me.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, no, that's all... it's just really beautiful. Honestly, I love what you're saying about that thread of humanity and human experience. And that, you know, obviously, race in America, and anywhere, is so complicated. And it's historical, it's systematic, it's intentional and unintentional. But one of the really core roots of it is people profiting on convincing people that they're different, you know, different from each other, different from the standard, whatever it is. Which of course, is just not true. Like, experiences are different.

Jamaal Barber  And I think it works the other way too, where, I did the Black Baby Project, which is a print that I did, and I ended up making a print that was, to me, I thought it was super powerful, but my wife hated it. I made this print of, it was a linocut of a baby, then I screen printed an orange jumpsuit on it, and it said DOC for Department of Corrections on it. So I thought it was really strong piece. My wife hated it. In that sense that I wanted to redo it, but I couldn't get their initial idea out of my head, so I started giving it to other artists. So I'm basically printing this linocut of a black child onto this paper, and then handing it to other artists and saying, 'Look, what is your message for a black child born right now?' And I purposely picked black artists, but I purposely picked non-black artists, because the same way I hand my children over to the school system here, it's not an all black school system. It's mostly white. Right? And that's fine. I trust them with my child. You can't have no greater trust than 'I have left my child with you, in your care, and not followed you around with a knife to your back.' Like, I absolutely love my children. So the fact that I have that kind of trust is that I trust you to recognize the humanity of my children, the same way that you would recognize humanity of your children. And I hope Paul doesn't mind me telling this story, but Paul Roden, one of the artists that did one of the Black Baby prints, he was saying kind of the same thing you were where he was hesitant about doing it. He didn't want to step on any toes. He don't want to go off and say too much. And you know what, I appreciate that. I appreciate you recognizing what it is, and attempting to respond to it in a meaningful way. And I basically told him like, 'I know what this means, for you as a white person to paint on this black child. I know what it means. And I am accepting of it.' Because this black child belongs to the community. This black child is an American, my kids are American. They are black American, they each have their own individual identity, but they are American, we belong in the system, like we have to acknowledge and accept each other. And it is up to you, or any other non-black person that my child interacts with, to kind of take up that role of nurturing my children. I want that. I don't want them to simply be in a bubble only touched by black people. That doesn't make any sense. So the exposure across the different cultures leads to a more well-rounded child. So I appreciate Paul being a part of it. I appreciate Diane Hiscox being a part of it, she's Canadian. I appreciate Soude [Dadras], who is an Iranian grad student at Georgia State. I appreciate all of these other cultures and people being a part of it, because you have to, at some point, if you can't care for a child, then we have lost all humanity. And I don't think that's us. I think that we can, at least at this point, recognize the helplessness of any child of any color. And just acknowledge that we care about them. And if we can start there, then everything can be fixed.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. You totally gave me goosebumps. That's so beautiful. 

Jamaal Barber  Thank you. I know it's a printmaking podcast, but I feel these things so to my core. It is a shame, some of the things that I've seen that we have accepted as a society, and a lot of times, like I said, I'm the one that will be... it's an extreme example, but I'm Trayvon Martin, right? And if there has ever been an incident of that magnitude, I will be the one that's shot and whoever it is will escape, because it is automatically figured that at some point, I,  in my blackness, have probably done something wrong. And that hurts your heart, you know. We shouldn't be like that. And so that's ultimately what I want to get at, that hopefully through my artwork and expressing these ideas of blackness as individuals, as people, as just my blackness alone does not inhibit my voice. That's basically all I want. So sometimes that takes on different forms, right? So sometimes it is direct propaganda, like my pieces that say "Be American" or "Strength Through Unity," like sometimes it's in-your-face aggressive, trying to push back against you taking my humanity. And sometimes it's just me loving my wife with my "Black Love" series, or being beautiful and accepting ourselves. Sometimes it looks like that, but it can look like a lot of different things. So I hope that's what people see when they look at my artwork.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. I'd also love to hear you talk about the exhibition that you touched on too, because I feel like it's a big part of this whole conversation, is the "400" exhibition that's actually on at the Aviation Center.

Jamaal Barber  So the "400" show, I love collaborating between artists, like so when I look and I study people like Bob Blackburn, who used to work with all kinds of artists in his studio. And the experience that I've had working with other people too, non-printmakers, to make prints, just introducing them to techniques, the whole problem solving part of it, I love that part. The connection between the kind of creative energy that gets shared between two people. So I always wanted to do a show that would be all collaborations, and I just needed a way to do it. So now, this year, it's 2019. The first slave ships arrived in America in in 1619 that listed "20 and odd negroes" as part of the cattle - I don't know what the right word is - cargo, was "20 and odd negroes." So that was the beginning of the journey. So it'll be exactly 400 years. So as we, as humans often do, try to make time significant, put meaning to our lives and our individual struggles, this 400 year anniversary came along and it's like, this is a perfect time to make some kind of statement about it. To say that, from that moment till now, what can we acknowledge as having happened? What can we acknowledge that has been significant? And what can we acknowledge that we want for the future? Because one of the artists that was in participating in the show pointed out that the 400 years, 1619 was not the beginning of a story, and 2019 now is not the end of the story. But in this time period, what kind of statements could we make? And so if I'm talking about... a lot of my work is about blackness, so the last show I did before that was called "Bright Black," which was me trying to figure out, if I'm going to make work about black identity, what does it mean to me to be black? And what does that entail? Inside of that show, there was this one piece called "The Council." And it was these five faces that were kind of cut up and overlapping each other. It was a great print. And part of that was that my idea of blackness comes from my understanding of everybody else's experience of blackness, because I won't be treated any differently than a black person in Mississippi or LA or New York, or wherever you are from. Your experience of blackness is just as valid as any other experience of blackness. And it can mean different things to every person that's involved. So if I'm going to tell the story of the last 400 years of black America, black Americans, period, I didn't want to tell it by myself. So I brought in all these other different artists, most of them were not printmakers, some of them were, but over the year - it took a whole year to make this show - but I basically collaborated with every single artist in there, I think it ended up being like 22 artists that I ended up collaborating with. And we made different types of work, and I didn't define strictly what "collaboration" was. So the Black Baby Project came out of it as a way for other people to collaborate with me and just embellishing one of my prints. Right? To me, that's collaboration, right? Me sitting down with another printmaker, Jasmine, the co-host on the podcast and plotting out and planning and adding to and working up a concept to make an original print. That's collaboration, right? Me being a master printer type for another artist, Kevin Cole, printing for him. That's collaboration. So all these different ways of collaborating, we did like sculptural elements with Grace Kisa where I took two woodcuts that I made, and I made like a house out of it. And so the house essentially functions as a stage for her to do her mixed media sculptures in and she made these very nice resin figures with zip ties and sisal and wood chips. It was a fantastic piece. But you know, making all these different ways of collaborating, kind of the common denominator would be me. Where I would be guiding or relating all of these different voices into one voice. So ultimately, I wanted to do a show that I didn't have my name on any one piece, but the show in its entirety was a reflection of me taking in all these other different perspectives, and trying to understand exactly what do I feel about where we are as a people? Because some people feel good about it, and some people don't. And I have to kind of understand, what don't you like about it? What do you like about it? And that informs my own understanding, as I try to figure out where I sit in this whole struggle. So it was, man, it was a lot of work. Because I started, right in the middle of doing the show, like two months later, I started grad school at Georgia State. So it was a tremendous amount of work, but it was well worth it. I think the show turned out fantastic.

Miranda Metcalf  It looks incredible from the photos. And a lot of them can be seen, I was gonna say for anyone who's listening and wants to wants to take a look at any of this, is your Instagram probably the best place, is it Studio Noize Instagram, is it both? If they want to pull up on their phones right now? 

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, a lot of will be on my Instagram.

Miranda Metcalf  Link in the show notes, of course.

Jamaal Barber  So I'm also updating my website with a page specifically dedicated to it. Because we did a lot of work, we made a couple videos, we made like a documentary video of the whole process, starting from our first meeting, way back in July last year, until now. It talks to all the artists. So there's a lot of stuff that went into the show that I'm trying to find a way to present and probably try to put in other places. I think it's a really strong show. So I would love for it to have more homes. Be able to travel to other places or do other things. Yeah, that always would be nice.

Miranda Metcalf  Of course. Yeah. So you said you're the collaborator, does printmaking have a pretty big place in that show because of that, or were you kind of just really more fluid with the media?

Jamaal Barber  Oh, no, it was a lot of printmaking. Because I did the screen printing side of it. I did image transfers. I did carving. We did woodcuts. We did some of the Black Baby stuff where they colored on my prints. I took the wood blocks and made a house. So it was - yeah, because my practice is basically printmaking. So I'm basically bringing in whoever has, whatever you do, how can I put that into a print? Or translate it into what I know, which is printmaking? So the photographer, Natrice Miller, she has these photos, and then I did image transfers with it where I distorted the image transfer with acetone before we printed them. So you know, it's a lot of different process that went into it. But it's a lot of printmaking in the show. And it doesn't always feel like it, because some of the pieces, like Tracy Murrell did this one piece that was like a ship and resin, and it has all these torn pieces of paper. You have to look closely, but I screen printed a pattern and colored the paper that she tore up into the painting. So that was the element that I added, but it's not traditionally printmaking, do you understand what I'm saying? I used printmaking to create the material that she used for the collage, so even if it's one or two steps removed, at the heart of it, it's about printmaking. And that's what I love about printmaking, too, is that it can be translated into all these other mediums. Like it doesn't have to be editions of very, you know, super clean, two inch borders, that kind of thing. You can create material for other things. Like the wood block itself. And I've used this a lot, I'll use it in my last show, too. But the wood blocks that are created are themselves art before you even print it. You look at it, it's the texture, you can feel all the marks and all this stuff. And even after it's inked, the way some of the ink sits on the surface and some of the lines are filled in, like it feels like its own character already. That's what I love about printmaking. It's so much you can do with it.

Miranda Metcalf  And I think to put printmaking in the box of like, it has to be flat, it has to be editioned, the sort of thing, you're totally glossing over and not giving it's due to the fact that there are unique aesthetics that you can only get through printmaking. And I think that sometimes one of the issues we have as printmakers is just being thought of as like, "Well, that's how you just make a painting, but like, a bunch of times." Right? But that's not it at all.

Jamaal Barber  Not at all. And especially like, man, I've seen some really creative stuff that people have done that puts me to shame. It makes me think I'm not doing enough of what I'm doing. But you know, that's the thing. Cuz all it is, especially when you take wood cuts, it's just wood, ink, and paper. That's all it is. And so every person, you have to take it and translate it your way. And just from those simple three elements, you can make incredible things. I love it. It's something about, you know, everybody has the same processes, and they've been around for hundreds of thousands of years, you know, people been making prints forever. Even printing the fabrics for their clothes, that's printmaking, when you think about it.

Miranda Metcalf  Or even like cave paintings, people putting something on their hand, sticking it on the wall, that's a transfer, you know?

Jamaal Barber  Exactly. So it's like, you know, taking the same thing that everybody else is dealing with, but now, like I said - I think I said before, but - you're putting yourself into it. You are filtering the world through you and out through whatever that process is. Yeah, it's incredible.

Miranda Metcalf  So my next question, I was thinking about it, and I was like, you know, I know it's always difficult as an artist because what you get is you put a year or more work into a show, and then it's up. And then what happens is people come to the show and go, 'So what's next?' So I'm like, oh, I feel sort of bad asking this knowing that you probably just had that experience and you're like, 'What do you mean what's next? A year wasn't enough for you?'

Jamaal Barber  It's funny, cuz I'm all about the journey. So the minute I dropped off all those pieces, I was ready to do something else. And I don't know what it's gonna be. I'm learning stone lithography now. So I'm gonna try to get into it and kind of experiment with that and see what I can come up with. Because it's completely different from how I draw and how I see things. And I love it. I really like how smooth it is, and these kinds of textures and stuff that you can get out of it. So this year, I promised myself that I wasn't going to - I probably won't be doing any more big shows like this until my thesis show. My thesis show, and it's a three year program, so I just finished my first year. So two years from now will be the next time I do a big show like this. Because I do just want to sit in it. I want to sit in grad school, I want to sit in these techniques, I want to sit in this time, and I want to see what else I could do. Because I like the statements that I'm making. I'm very proud of "400" and all the other stuff that I've made, and I just want to see what else I can add to whatever the conversation is. So I'm just gonna sit in these techniques and see what happens. And it's exciting. So exciting. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what I want to make. And I kind of always get this feeling, I don't know if you get this feeling, but I get this feeling after I finish something, I always look at it as like, 'Man, that's pretty good. I will never make anything this good for the rest of my life.' After I say that enough times, I kind of take it as a challenge, like, you know, I can do better than that. Somehow, you know, I can do something. So I think that's where I am now. I'm looking at it, and I'm so proud of it that I don't know if I'll ever make anything that good in my life. But I'm gonna try. And so that's that's where I am. 

Miranda Metcalf  I love that. Yeah. That's a wonderful attitude to have towards it. Because I know that feeling where you're just like, you sit back and you're like, 'Well, I've peaked. Man, I'm gonna be disappointing everyone from here on out.' 

Jamaal Barber  Yeah, I hope they're not expecting this again. But hopefully, hopefully I've got something else to say.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. Well, I think this is a great opportunity to wrap up. We touched on it a little bit, but please, can you remind everyone what's the best way for people to find you and follow you and listen to your podcast and buy your work and all of that stuff?

Jamaal Barber  Oh, yeah. So definitely check me out on IG. I'm always on IG at @jbarberstudio. And listen to the podcast, Studio Noize podcast. And it's @studionoizepodcast on IG. Check out my website, www.jbarberstudio.com. And just kind of keep up with me. I'll be working on something. And I'm looking for collaborators. I'm always looking for collaborators, because I'm going to start back up the Black Baby Project. And I'll be sending out more Black Babies to people. So if they want one, holla at me, let me know. I can send you one, you can be a part of the project.

Miranda Metcalf  I love it. That's so good. Well, thank you so much for joining me and being just open and amazing. It's been a huge pleasure. So thank you. 

Jamaal Barber  Oh, no, thank you. Appreciate you. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, talk to you soon. Well, that's our show for this week. Join me again in two weeks' time when my guest will be Paul (Opal) de Ruvo, a nonbinary printmaker working in Norfolk, Connecticut. Paul shares their incredible printmaking pedigree, being introduced to the Center for Contemporary Printmaking at age just 14, and falling madly in love with the process. We talk bodies and gender and silk aquatint and queer communities and Goya and collaborative printmaking and so much more. So, do yourself a favor and make sure you tune in for that one. But this episode, like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing help from Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Webber. I'll see you in two weeks.