episode six | ben beres

Published 23 Jan 2019

Miranda Metcalf  Hello print friends, and welcome to the sixth episode of Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend), the internet's number one printmaking podcast. I'm your host, Miranda Metcalf. I release an episode every two weeks, and on the off weeks, I publish an article on the Pine Copper Lime website (helloprintfriend.com) that features images, and maybe a little more information about the artist I'm going to chat with. In this episode, I talked to Ben Beres. He's a printmaker who lives and works in Seattle, Washington, as well as an instructor at Cornish College of the Arts, his alma mater, and the third of an art trio called Sutton Beres Culler, whose practice ranges from gallery works to installation performance and public projects. Ben and I chat about his early influences, such as how growing up in the church, the son of a preacher man, unexpectedly groomed him to be extremely well suited to the community building inherent in the art. We also talk about the complexities of being an art instructor in this day and age, art making in the time of Trump, and how we will all need to evolve as the face of the art world, such as who has money, who collects, and who cares, radically change in the coming years. I've known and loved Ben for many years working with him at Davidson galleries in Seattle. So I think this might be one of the most fun episodes I've recorded thus far. You'll find that Ben has a great mind and an even better sense of humor, and I think our rapport really comes through quite nicely. Anything he mentions can be found in the show notes. If you'd like to drop me a line, Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) can be found on helloprintfriend.com. And @helloprintfriend on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And as of the week this podcast is published, I'm celebrating 5000 followers on Instagram, with a really nice etching to give away. So if Instagram and free good art is your thing, pop on over and say hi. That can be found @helloprintfriend. Without further ado, here's Ben. 

Ben Beres  Hey, Miranda, how are you? 

Miranda Metcalf  I'm good. I'm good. How are things in Seattle?

Ben Beres  They're good. They're unseasonably warm and sunny, and everyone's got a fall smile on their face. So it's nice.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, well enjoy it while you can. 

Ben Beres  Well, I'm stuck inside talking to you. 

Miranda Metcalf  I'll make it worth your while. I'll make it worth your while. 

Ben Beres  I'm just kidding. I'm glad to be here. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, I'm happy we can sit down and chat. So I know you from my time at Davidson, and had the pleasure and the honor of representing your work for many years there. But would you mind telling our audience a little bit about yourself?

Ben Beres  I was born in Akron, Ohio in 1976. My parents moved to Portland pretty much immediately. And my father is a pastor. And I grew up in the church and thinking I was going to become a pastor of some sorts, but also really wanted to - just was struck with the art bug early on, and was always drawing, was always creating, was always making things with my hands and got a lot of attention for that, and came up to Seattle to go to art school in '96 and went to Cornish College of the Arts. I was going to be a painter and sculptor, and I kind of came out as a printmaker and a performance artist. So, however that happens, but sculpture was kind of boring and dead to me, and it needed some life. And then I found printmaking through John Overton and Kathleen Rabel, who were both at Cornish for almost 40 years, and just were amazing mentors and teachers. And Kathleen also showed at Davidson and helped me get that introduction to Sam. And so I had worked with Kara for a long time, and then you you became the new Kara and it was awesome.

Miranda Metcalf  I think I will forever be the new Kara.

Ben Beres  The most lovely person. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, cuz she's, and you know, she was there for 11 years, you know, I mean, I really had this incredible opportunity to step into this incredible group of artists that she had put her heart and soul into for for over a decade. So I'm always okay with the title of being the new Kara. I wear it proudly. So you talked a little bit about your background there and how you grew up in the church, and how did that kind of - and you said, you know, you got a lot of attention for sort of making things with your hands and doing art, but how did that interact with the church environment? Did people, were they supportive of the arts? Or was it sort of suspicious because, you know how artists are. 

Ben Beres  I do know how artists are. It was fine, I mean, my dad was a youth pastor for most of my growing up. And then when I left for college, he became a pastor of his own church. He was kind of wild and wacky for being a pastor. So it was, there was a lot of leeway, I think. Really open and accepting. ButI remember, one of my first linocuts was like a hill with a skull, and like three crosses, and like I sold it like crazy. So like all the church members, like, know your audience. They were always really accepting, but yeah, there was definitely a choice of becoming a pastor or becoming an artist. And I feel like what I do is very much aligned with what I grew up with, as far as, you know, gathering around a central idea, which is art versus God. Always asking for money, big sense of community, you know, having events, having community around, and like, all for this kind of greater good thing. It's just much freer and less judgmental to be an artist.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, that's something I've always found was really interesting about your story, and particularly knowing you and having seen you at your openings, and the way you are very comfortable in that role of talking to people and making them feel comfortable and feel like you're sort of bringing them in to the fold, so to speak.

Ben Beres  I hated it growing up, like my mom would be like 'Someone's sitting alone,' or like, 'You should go talk to this person,' or like, 'Go, you have to go to this.' Like I was fully formed into this, and I absolutely despised it. And I was really shy growing up. And like, as I kind of grew up and got older and more confident, I'm like, oh my God, I've been perfectly groomed to just like, be a people person, to be an artist, like almost this hybrid politician/artist/pastor type thing. And it's, I love it. It's great. When people talk about social anxiety and being uncomfortable in large groups, I just, it's completely confusing to me.

Miranda Metcalf  I have the same experience where I, I understand it, but I'm always, you know, I'm always the kind of person that I'm like, ooh, an opening. I never have that, like, "oh, I hate them, I never know what to say" feeling. But, you know, everyone's a little bit different.

Ben Beres  Yeah, totally. And like my partner, Amanda, she grew up in the church as well. So like, we can go out and just have a blast at these openings. And there's no qualms with like, spending too much time at that, or, you know, being annoyed by people. I mean, that happens too. But it's just, we're so used to it. And it's nice. It's a total added bonus.

Miranda Metcalf  And then so you touched on a little bit how you came to printmaking. But can you talk about how you realized that this was something that you wanted to dedicate a lot of your life and a lot of your practice to?

Ben Beres  The other thing I should say is that this is - my art practice is multifaceted in the way that I've been working with two other guys for... September's the beginning of year 19. So it's John Sutton and Zac Culler. And we go by Sutton Beres Culler. And we do public art, sculpture, drawings, whatever it needs to be done, in getting an idea out. Almost 20 years together, and so I kind of joke that printmaking and etching is my like, hobby, is my solo practice. It's the one thing I do that no one else can fuck with. And they can't, they don't get to tell me what color or we don't have to argue about the size or where it's going. It's like, this is mine. And that's really precious to me. So I have a lot of love for the time that I have with the plate. Because it's mine. And I love my collaborative. I love working on large scale things, I love doing performances, but there's always so many voices, that this is what I get to do completely on my own. So I think when I started at Cornish, I remember not liking it, I was having a hard time with the image, with the rigidity of, like, a rectangle or a square. And I started doing these large scale drawings that were just writing. And it was for a class that I had with Cris Bruch, who is an awesome sculptor, based in Seattle. And my roommate at the time, Zac, my partner, was like, 'You should try that on a copper plate.' I was like, 'Oh yeah.' So I did it. The piece was called first words. And I think in there I was like, 'Oh, I wonder if I can go smaller.' And so I just jumped in and like was just - I gave myself a task with filling a plate, and we're talking about copper etching through hard ground. And I loved it and I just, it stuck. And I started selling a little bit and realizing... I'm now teaching at Cornish, and so one of my spiels with the students, like, 'I don't know what to do, painting or printing,' I'm like, 'Do the math with selling a $1000 painting and you get $500 and you spent $100. So you get $400. And there's nothing, or you sell 30 of these at $300, like, blah, blah, blah. And also, you're in these different collections and people's houses, and you get to be in shows here and there.' And it seemed like a no brainer to me, like on a pragmatic level, but also just being a sculptor, dealing with mold making and casting, I find printmaking very much a sculptural - I mean, we're dealing with incredibly small tolerances, but you're still dealing with like, how an acid bites into the metal or how deep you carve into wood, or, you know, making marks that then are holding ink or repelling ink. And it's just, it's really satisfying. And I don't know, when you meet other printmakers, you know, they're your tribe. You geek out on the inks, or the paper, or the copper, the wood, it just goes on and on and on.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, there's definitely a crossover between sculpture artists and printmaking artists. And I think you've really touched on it with the, it's about manipulating a three dimensional surface, and in a very shallow way, but it's still that same kind of mark making, which is great. 

Ben Beres  Kathleen - we're always talking about microns of levels of the ink that you're laying down or taking off. And then like, you know, 32nds of an inch of like this etching in or - I just remember like, shrinking down to these sizes and scales, but also knowing that, oh, this is sculptural, this is dimension.

Miranda Metcalf  So you mentioned a bit there that you were teaching at Cornish, which is a great art school in Seattle that you also graduated from. I'd love to hear you talk about what you find the state of printmaking is these days, like, how are the kids these days? Do they like printmaking? Do they come to your classroom knowing about it? Do you think that you're getting more people for our tribe? What's your impression there?

Ben Beres  You know, it's funny, I feel like I've kept out of the larger printmaking world, like, following more people on Instagram, learning more about different presses and whatnot, and then just recently going to the SGCI conferences and planning on going again this year, it's been really eye opening and helpful.

Miranda Metcalf  Hi print friends. It's me again. And no, don't worry, I'm not interrupting to bring you a well placed, amusing advertisement direct to a target audience from an ink manufacturer, paper company, or postgraduate program. Although if anyone works in advertising or anything like that, you know where to find me. But instead I'm doing it because Ben and I have mentioned this conference a couple of times. And for those who are uninitiated, it's the Southern Graphics Council International conference. Long name, kinda awkward. But it's a huge and super fun printmaking conference held in America once a year. It's an amazing place to see demonstrations, hear talks from top scholars in the field from around the world, but most importantly, to connect with people who are incredible printmakers and incredible humans. The next one is going to be in Dallas, Texas, and Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend), and me, will be there as a vendor. So make sure to get your tickets and come say hi. And as always, there'll be a link in the show notes. Okay. Sorry. Back to Ben.

Ben Beres  Yes, kids are totally into it. They love it. I just think it's that constant conflict of space and material and presses and just the availability of the equipment. That is difficult once they graduate. But we, for the last three years - I've been in and out of teaching there - but the last three years, we've had a handful of them that just get immediately hooked, and they love it. And then their BFA shows are strictly printmaking. And it's awesome. And I'm bringing one or two of my students to Texas this year for that conference. I don't know, I think it's good. I think it's helpful that we have that anchor of Davidson in town. I wish there were more printmaking studios and galleries but it's pretty robust here. It seems pretty healthy. Yeah, I think they're all interested. I think a lot of them, when they get it, they realize that oh, this is so different than... a lot of them approach it as painting or drawing, and it's not, it's neither. It can be better than both or it's this new hybrid that is just so above and beyond that, and then the multiple is just amazing. So right now we've done, we started with some aquatinting right off the bat, which was really fun. There was there was an Alex Katz show at the Bellevue Art Museum that was all these poets from the 70s that was only, like four or five layer aquatints, no line etching. So we started with that, and then went into etching. And now we're onto collagraphs, moving into monoprints. And then I think we're gonna dip into vitreography at some point soon as well, which is fun.

Miranda Metcalf  What do you think about the fact that printmaking is kind of separate or can be separate from a quote-unquote "larger" arts community? So a place like Davidson galleries, really, for the most part, does not show painting, does not show sculpture. And it seems like really robust printmaking galleries tend to be that way, and in non medium specific galleries that happen to show print, it may not get the same attention in that environment as it does in a printmaking specific gallery, obviously. So this is a question that I actually wonder a lot too. Are we doing ourselves a favor by having just a printmaking gallery? Or is that sort of separation, overall, maybe damaging if our end goal is to get printmaking more into the public eye or more education and understanding about it?

Ben Beres  God, I don't know. I mean, because Kucera, the other gallery that I show with Sutton Beres Culler, he will definitely show prints and that'll be like certain editions or some silk screens or whatever, we did a bunch of vitreography through him and that's all fine. And it seems like other galleries do include it. I'm also in that glass world a little bit, where they're just like, 'No one takes us seriously!' And that's like, to me, that shows that print is way better off.  And they're kind of stuck in this, like, we're a craft. This is all we do. But also there has to be crossover. And maybe Seattle's gotten a lot better at that, because we're so heavy with glass and there's a lot of printmaking opportunities. I imagine in other cities, like, never the two shall meet, but I don't know. I also think if you're just a printmaker, to me, that's pretty weird too. I mean, there are ideas that have to be done in three dimensions, or sculpture or bronze, and maybe that's just the way that I've been working for 25 years now that, you know, public art isn't going to be a print, or like a glass vase. I feel like I'm dancing around your question, but I don't really know the answer.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, I don't know either. Yeah, cuz in a way, I think part of the way that we are separated is what gives us that sense of community that's so strong and wonderful. And I would never want to see that go away. But then I also talk to people who really seem to think that if artists who are printmaking-specific ever want to have a chance of really making a living just doing their art, it needs to break out of the bubble. We need to have people understanding that these aren't photocopies. These aren't after works. That these are original works that are multiples.

Ben Beres  "Oh, so uh, you work with PDFs? That sort of thing?" Goddamnit, no, what? Yeah, one of one of my dreams, and I think I might just be in the wrong place or institution or there's just not enough capital, but Cornish is such a badass printmaking studio, and I'm like, alright, let's bring in Amanda, let's bring in Zac, let's bring in Jeffrey Mitchell. Let's bring in former students, let's bring in people who just work in painting like Margie Livingston, or - I'm just naming off a bunch of Seattle artists. Let's get their work, at least for their next show, at James Harris or Kucera or SOIL or 4culture. Let's have an etching involved, let's have a litho, let's do... and then that could just start being these kind of calling cards, A, for Cornish or whatever press wants to do it and, B, for, I mean, I do feel like an evangelist for this medium. Like, look at the etching, look at the copper, look at what we've done. And I'm also, I think, doing it a little bit differently than is seen by what I normally see as traditional etching. Yeah, it doesn't have to be stuck in this, like, I'm not making landscapes. I'm not - so much of the problem with printmaking, to me, it's very much like contemporary dance. It's just for the print makers or just for the dancers. Yeah, it's got to be, sure, technically sound and I want to look at an amazing aquatint or badass spit bite, but you, not knowing those techniques, should also be able to look at an image and be inspired or find it interesting. That's always that conundrum for me.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, I think this is a great way to segue into talking more specifically about your printmaking practice. Really, in your last exhibition that you had at Davidson, I think is when we really saw a big transition. The earlier works, just talk about that, because I think that that transition is significant, but we obviously have to know where you're coming from to understand that. When I first came to Davidson, the work that you were doing, or at least the work that we had, it was pretty, I'd say, pretty simple line etching. So you know, just in technique, it was either relief rolled, or just a line etching for the most part. And you would have kind of two bodies of, two sides of that, you know, one where you were doing this extremely tight writing, maybe filling the whole plane with very small, very precise writing, which, of course, you did backwards, you know, then you would have maybe it filled with images as well, filling that whole plane. And those could be images from pop culture, or just kind of the general... and this is, I think I've mentioned to you before that one of the only times I want to use the word zeitgeist is talking about your work, but I hate myself for actually using it talking about art, but you know, so pulling something from our zeitgeist, and it was it was very much... I think it felt like a lot of it was sort of stream of consciousness, you know, either in words or in images or then the other side of it, which I think is what eventually evolved into what I'm seeing from you now, was a little bit larger words where you maybe were actually supposed to read them. And then the visual composition of how you've placed the words in the plane is adding to the actual content that the words make. And so let's say it's a left brain and right brain experience where you are deciphering what the words mean, and then that in itself is sort of the experience that you're having while engaging with that. 

Ben Beres  I think you missed the mark completely.

Miranda Metcalf  This interview is over.

Ben Beres  No, it's great. No, that's awesome. I do think that it's really good to like, hear that and then think about where I'm at. And a lot of this does have to do with being at Cornish and my labtech there, his name is Bradley Taylor. He is awesome. And he's like, one of the most eager, hungry, like, he just wants to know, and he wants to conquer every little bit of printmaking. And it's so much fun to have him at my side. And to be like, 'Do you know this technique? What about this? What about this?' And so in the past I had, because I didn't have as much access to presses, I would load up a bunch of plates. I would bevel them, hard ground them, and they'd sit so I could work really, really long, knowing that when I had access to a press, I would plop them in the acid and then fire out, for like two straight weeks, a bunch of small editions, or bigger if I could. So now that I'm in the lab three days a week, four days a week, I get to work really slow on learning this aquatint, or something I'm calling messytint, and throwing the rosin down and trying to mess with sugar lift, but I just have more time in the lab. And that has made it so I can slow down and pull back. Also, I think, I was 20, 25, 28 when I was blasting all those letters down. Now I feel like I'm at least old enough that I can figure out something mildly interesting to say that, it seemed so obscured with like, I don't know, I'm just gonna get it all out there. Now I feel like I've paid enough dues to have like, a slight opinion, if that makes any sense. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, that's the thing is where I see, you know, now, where your works evolved into is this, you know, it is so much more playful in the printmaking which obviously comes from your access at Cornish, you know, and again, you know, temperament changes between, you know, as 20 years go by, but also, the content has become, I guess for lack of a better word, just more political. What's, I'm trying to think of what a word would be for like -

Ben Beres  Well, I don't know if you've seen the news lately. There is a level of feeling a little bit helpless and like, all I can do, all I know how to do, and what I am the best at, is making art. And so like, how can I do that in a way that actually means something that doesn't feel like, I mean, it's still shouting into the void, but maybe it's a little bit more interesting sounding going into the void.

Miranda Metcalf  Do you think that it's possible to be an artist in America now, and not make political work? You know, in the sense that it's... all the insanity is so present and so crushing. And, you know, as you say, making you feel powerless.

Ben Beres  It almost feels like being an artist, or making art, is a political act in itself. That may be a cop out, but like, I don't know, you made me think of Zac Culler's mandalas that he's been doing. And it's these beautiful nature scenes, and it's like fish and clams and beautiful plants. But when you look at them, they're all Northwest native, or not Northwest native, Northwest invasive species. And he made these beautiful paintings out of these things that are kind of really messed up politically and like, causing problems, environmentally, in the state. And I think that's a really beautiful political painting without hitting you over the head with it. I think these kids that are graduating school with like, $150,000 to $200,000 in debt to be an artist, like, it's insane, it's totally insane that they're doing that. A lot of them have help through grants and student loans and parents, but still, when I start off with my kids, I'm like, you want to be an artist? And I kind of like giggle and laugh, I'm like, you may have this idea that it's this beret wearing, coffee shop, fun wine drinking, opening... like, it's fucking hard. And like, I'm broke, I'm 42, I have no savings. I don't own anything, but I just keep working on this, hoping that it'll pay off. But like, it pays off emotionally. And it satisfies me. But it's difficult, and it's difficult to start way in the hole with debt. And I feel really bad for a lot of these students. But I don't know, a ton of people I know that I went to Cornish with are still making art and like, it's props to Cornish, it's props to like, I mean, this city isn't really helping sustain people like it used to, people are having to leave because it's so expensive. It's interesting, but also, people are getting paid. People are getting, there's a lot of other opportunities for artists, through Facebook, through Amazon, through Google and Vulcan, so. It's just not affecting everyone positively. 

Miranda Metcalf  Right, it's just, it's changing. 

Ben Beres  It's a conversation that everyone in Seattle is just ad nauseum, just over and over and over. It's affecting people every single day.

Miranda Metcalf  And I think, yeah, kind of, to kind of go back a little bit to what you're saying about these kids who are graduating with this debt, and they want to be artists, and that idea of like, you know, you won't have anything. Since moving to Australia, I've realized that when you're in a system where you're actually being taken care of, not having anything actually isn't scary, because... 

Ben Beres  I don't know what you're talking about!

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, that idea of not having anything and you know, being a musician or an artist, and not having anything, it's okay, because you're always going to have food and you're always going to have medical care here. And it's a completely different idea of going into the arts and creating cultural capital for your country, basically. 

Ben Beres  It's kind of depressing. 

Miranda Metcalf  I know. Yeah. I think it really can be and that's, yeah, something that again, since I've been here, you just realize how much stress Americans are walking around in, holding. Because, you know, at any moment, their whole world could come crashing down unless they're super wealthy. That's the only way to have a sense of security in America is to be super wealthy. So anyway, it's... when are you guys gonna, you guys should fix it over there, you know?

Ben Beres  I'm working on it! Actively. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, yeah.

Ben Beres  The 12 million people that will listen to this podcast will change a bunch of minds and start buying all the prints. It'll be great.

Miranda Metcalf  So the students that you have, are they, they must be reacting to the politics of America in what they do, you know, because they're millennials, right? If they're like 18, 19 when you meet them, for the most part? How do you see that affecting their art making or their psyche even, having grown up in this world?

Ben Beres  I think... it's really weird for me because I remember being exactly in their position, like working on the same presses, and it was like, "George W. Bush and the WTO, and like, fuck world, like all the world trade and like, the world is like, we have the worst president ever in history!" And then it's like, they're saying the same things. I'm just like, oh, man, that's also kind of depressing. Like, it was tough when I was a kid, and you're like, 'Oh, yeah, this is actually the worst president we've ever had.' I don't know. I think it's almost like a lot of them want to be Shepard Fairey. And like, make the badass poster that changes the world with one glance, and that dude's been doing this for a long time. I think the benefit with me is I'm teaching technique. And a lot of it is having to talk to them about subtleties, or figuring out a way to say what they're saying without giving it all up. Does that make sense? Like, this is what I'm trying to say, this needs to be out in the world, like, blam! Like, oh, no, we actually have to work on subtle visual cues. And you don't literally have to spell everything out in text, what you're trying to say, like, try and work that into an image. So that's been fun, and really satisfying. And I think we've gotten some good results from that. Yeah, I don't know. I think they're doing a good job of it. I think they're all really active and socially engaged. And I mean, we're constantly talking about the state of the world. But I mean, how could you not?

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, that's something that's come up a few times in conversations I've been having with American artists is that idea of, as you say, sort of that making art is in and of itself a political act, which I do believe, as cliche as that can be. But you know, yeah, it's a little hokey, but at the same time, you're making this decision of saying, 'Yeah, I know, I'm probably not gonna have anything, but.' Do you think that in some ways, Seattle might be a canary in the coal mine for a lot of America? In that our whole industry, you know, obviously, we're not doing production anymore in the sense of factories, all those are closed down, all through the rust belt. Is it, do you think that that's where we're going to start evolving into, is more cities are going to be like San Francisco and Seattle? And as artists, we're going to have to find a way to play nice with those kids if we want to survive? 

Ben Beres  For sure. I mean, there's been so many panels, I mean, since like, the first .com boom in the late 90s, there's been like, 50 panel discussions in Seattle, like, 'How do we get tech people more interested in buying art or being a part of it?' And like, 'They want Tesla's and flat screens.' And now a lot of people want experiences and travel and the object, the art object isn't as important. I've been to a bunch of people I know in tech, and like, I walk into their places, and there's nothing on the walls or like, a black and white, like IKEA Eiffel Tower photo from Paris, that just, like, it's devastating. We need to learn how to play nice and like figure out, and I do think there's a lot of people working on it and crossover, I think the Seattle Art Fair has been really awesome in bridging that gap, and helping. And the gallery scene, at least, feels really robust and healthy right now. But like, I don't think people are buying, at least as much as they were a few years ago.

Miranda Metcalf  The people in tech, you know, it's almost like they're like this other  - well, I guess, sort of, they are, you know, this other tribe that's like, you know, they let me into their community once and here are my anthropological observations, but when I've lived amongst them, you know, what I've experienced is that it's not that they're not interested in art, you know, or if you were to ask them, you know, 'What do you think about art?' Or anything like that, they'd be like, 'Oh, I don't care about that'. I think part of it is that they have this idea, which I think is not just tech specific. That, a lot of people in America have this idea, that's sort of, art's just not for them, right? Yeah, that there's some sort of magical information they need to be able to stand in front of a work of art or experience a work of art and decide whether or not it moves them. That there's a truth value to it. I think that they're seeking that, that there's sort of a right way to respond to art. And I think that if we could somehow let people know that that's one of the greatest things about art is that there's not a truth value, you know, it's each person's individual experience, and whether this piece of work makes you makes you cry or makes you want to throw up or makes you happy or makes you feel nothing, all of those things are true because you're experiencing them and that's what it is. And it's, I think, when you come from a very analytical, tech, black and white - because you know, that's all math based, obviously, all of that stuff. You know, where you're looking for a right answer. I think that we need to somehow educate people that do realize that there's no right answer and just to experience it, that is the value.

Ben Beres  You're allowed to hate this, actually. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, exactly. 

Ben Beres  Yeah, cuz I hate tons of art that I see every single day. All the time.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, well, I'm very glad that you are holding out there and that you're going to be a pioneer in figuring out how we're all gonna survive once the whole world is made of lanyards and Patagonia jackets.

Ben Beres  Yeah, just gonna make a lanyard bedazzling station down in Amazon land. That's how I'll make my first million. Puffy paint, sequins, it's gonna be awesome. 

Miranda Metcalf  Oh my gosh, it's gonna be really good. I can't wait. Maybe you can... yeah, I'm trying to think if you can work printmaking into it somehow, like custom letterpress lanyards. Yeah. That's great. Well, I'm coming up on the recording time mark. Would you please tell everyone where they can find out more about you?

Ben Beres  Sure. My group's website is suttonberresculler.com. I show at Davidson Galleries, that's where my printmaking is at. My Instagram is @benjamite1061. And that's probably the best places to find me.

Miranda Metcalf  Sounds good. I will link to all of these in the show notes. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me.

Ben Beres  Yeah, and thanks for doing this. It's really awesome that there's another avenue for people to explore print and have these stories and see what's behind all the work. It's really awesome and admirable, and I'm super stoked to dig into all the content you've created.

Miranda Metcalf  Thanks again, Ben. 

Ben Beres  Cool, bye!

Miranda Metcalf  This episode of Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend), like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing help from Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Webber. Thanks for stopping by, and I'll see you in two weeks.