episode thirty | stephanie alaniz

Published 8 January 2020

Miranda Metcalf  Hello print friends, and welcome to the 30th episode of Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend), the internet's number one printmaking podcast. I'm your host, Miranda Metcalf. I release an episode every two weeks, and on the off weeks, I publish an article on the Pine Copper Lime website, which features images and maybe a bit more information about the artist I'm going to interview. You know, I really want to say Happy New Year, print friends. I really want to, but unfortunately, we're only eight days into 2020 and things already don't feel so happy. Without even getting into everything else that's going on, I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone about the unprecedented and devastating fires burning through Australia. For those of you who don't know, Australia is where I live and where PCL is made. Not to make things sound more dramatic than they are, but I've had a bag packed and ready to evacuate for the last week, just waiting by the door just in case. It has cash, a phone charger, a battery powered radio, and of course, the backup hard drive with all the yet-to-be-released interviews for Pine Copper Lime, because dammit, I ain't losing those. These fires have destroyed homes, rainforests, they've killed at least six people, and almost half a billion animals have been lost. Bushfire season still has another three months to go. So I want to tell you about a fundraiser I'm hosting for WIRES. That's an acronym for an Australian wildlife rescue organization. So please follow the link in the show notes. That link will also be on the PCL website, on Facebook, or on Instagram. There, you can make a donation, and with a contribution of just $10 or more, I will send you a hand pulled screenprint postcard. There are three options to choose from, each generously donated by local artists Claire Jackson, Alex Lundy, and Tim Pauszek. They're stunning and slightly macabre and a gosh darn steal at 10 bucks. And that's 10 bucks Australian. So anyone who's thinking of the US dollar, take off about 30% from that. It's set up through GoFundMe, which means 100% of your donations go directly to WIRES, directly to help fluffy little koalas and spiky little echidnas and hoppy little kangaroos and, my personal favorite, the noble and solid wombat. Printmaking forever, shun the non believers, join that activism party. And speaking of activism, I cannot wait to share my chat with my guest this week, Stephanie Alaniz. She's an intersectional feminist, fat activist, and adjunct professor at Emporia State University. We talk about it all: growing up in a very conservative family, how we deal and process our physical insecurities through art making and collaboration, immersive print exhibitions, fatness, lithography, and of course, the wonderful found family one can build through printmaking. So sit back, relax, and prepare to get radical with Stephanie Alaniz. Hey, Steph, how's it going? 

Stephanie Alaniz  Hi Miranda, how are you?

Miranda Metcalf  I'm good. I'm good. I'm so glad we're finally getting a chance to chat face to face. 

Stephanie Alaniz  So to speak.

Miranda Metcalf  So to speak. Because I've known you sort of through Instagram, and I'd followed your work for a while before that. And I'm just really excited to share what you're doing and your story with people. But I would love it if you could give yourself a little introduction and just let people know who you are, where you are, and what you do.

Stephanie Alaniz  Okay. I'm Stephanie Alaniz, and I'm currently working and living in Emporia, Kansas as an adjunct professor. I am a queer fat activist. So I am making work where I've called upon other folks to participate that involves insecurities and trying to normalize and create solidarity and understanding of those insecurities. I focused first on myself, and so I have a lot of work that's just of my face. And really, I'm not even leaping into insecurities that are more abstract or emotional, really just physical, and trying to identify where they come from, what their roots are. So when I did myself, it felt like it was healing for me, but it still felt too far for other people. And I am a person who's motivated by empathy and trying to understand people and trying to be considerate of everyone. I was nervous about including people in the beginning, because I didn't want to be taking advantage of anyone, I wanted to make sure this was something that was helpful and not harmful. So I focused on myself, because I knew that I wouldn't be doing that to myself. And through a lot of encouragement from really kind and supportive people, they were like, 'You should just include other people, because other people want to be included.' And so I put the call out on Instagram, and at first it was a lot of friends. But now I have a lot of strangers, which is exciting. And I think in total, I met 90 participants for this portrait project. And I've only done 36. And I took a break after grad school, because I transitioned from West Virginia to Emporia, Kansas. And then I was teaching three classes, which was something I wasn't doing before. I was only teaching one class. And then of course, being a student, and I am a person who has to be working constantly. So I haven't really gotten to make work, because I'm trying to find the balance, the new balance, in being a professor and an artist. But now I'm starting to make work again, which is great. But this winter break, I'm gonna get to go back into working on the portraits again, which I'm very excited about. And then when they're experienced collectively, we can start to see repetitious patterns of people not liking their second chin, or bags under their eyes, or wrinkles, which has to do with ageism and fatphobia and eurocentric ideologies, and any of those norms. And so, as individuals, we can look at those things, whether we were a participant or not, and decide if we believe that to be a bad thing about ourself or if that was something we were conditioned to believe through societies.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, absolutely. And so I think it's good, since we're talking about conditioning and the messages we get when our brains are still squishy when we're young, and how we carry those with us, would you tell us a little bit about your own growing up? Where were you, what role did art play in your life? Were you always drawing? Were you taken to museums? What was that like?

Stephanie Alaniz  So I grew up to a very low income young family, and they were still into partying, and a lot of my childhood memories have to do with them drinking and doing drugs and partying. And of course, as a child, I didn't know any better or think anything of it. But they were surprisingly supportive and always were like, 'Wow, you draw so good!' Which probably wasn't true. And they were just being really supportive. And I was like, 'Yeah, I do draw good!' So then I kept doing it, and I think I'm maybe the only person in the world who has the little sheets they make you fill out as a child that say, 'What do you want to be when you grew up?' And mine all say either artist or art teacher. And I have never known any other thing I would want to be doing, which is so strange. And my partner, he wants to be everything. And he really is jealous of my ability to only have ever wanted this one thing, and that was my goal and tunnel vision. Someone read my palm before and told me it says I have one path, which is kind of crazy.

Miranda Metcalf  That sounds appropriate, then. So you just knew from the beginning that you were going to go to art school and this was it for you, then, hey?

Stephanie Alaniz  Yeah. So I forgot to say, I'm from Rockport, Texas, which is actually outside of Corpus Christi. So that's South Texas on the gulf coast of Mexico. And I knew I was going to go to college, because I didn't know what else I would do, but I also knew I wanted to make art. And it was a really bad undergrad in the beginning. Because I didn't like... I don't know, I think I was burnt out. And then when I was in undergrad, I signed up for printmaking. And of course, I had no idea what that meant, because I'm from a tiny town called Rockport, which only has like 7000 people in it, and our art teachers when I left were really great, but I'd never heard of printmaking. So when I went to the community college, I took a printmaking class, which was like a down and dirty crash course of doing all of the main types. So we did a woodcut first and then a linocut and then an intaglio, and then the last two weeks, we had to do a stone litho. 

Miranda Metcalf  Just two weeks?

Stephanie Alaniz  It was the worst thing I've ever made. It's so ugly. And it's because - oh, well, I guess I'm speeding up to the punchline of my next story, which is, so I switched to Texas A&M Corpus Christi. And my second semester, I signed up for printmaking, and I had heard it was kind of a hodgepodge of all processes. So I was very excited because I hadn't done screenprint, and I was ready to learn screenprint. And then when we got there, Ryan O'Malley said, 'Alright, this is a litho specific class, we're only doing stone lithography.' And I was so mad because I already did it. I was like, 'I already did that. I don't want to do it again, I want to do screenprinting.' And then - I don't know if I wasn't paying attention when I learned it in the community college - but Ryan sharpened the crayon. And I was like, 'Everything is different now.' Because the first litho I did, I don't know why I didn't piece together, my little baby brain couldn't piece together that I could sharpen this pencil. So I just drew to a rounded nub and the drawing was so bad. And then I fell in love with stone litho. That was it. Because I always loved drawing, I've always been drawing. But drawing started to get boring because it wasn't challenging me enough. And so litho was the challenge that I wanted. It breaks up the stagnant-ness of drawing that I was experiencing, not that drawing doesn't have many facets, but I had a limited idea of what drawing was. And so learning stone litho and having to problem solve, and trying to understand the chemicals that were in place, and how to etch a stone properly, all of that was so fascinating and exciting to me. And I lost a lot of prints, and I cried a lot. I think the first time I lost a litho, it hurt, right, I cried. And the second time I cried a little, and then the third time I was just numb. But because I'm a fire sign, I have to win. So I was like, 'I'm gonna learn how to do litho. It's not going to defeat me.' And of course I love drawing. So it's the perfect medium for that.

Miranda Metcalf  I think that litho studios, instead of having a swear jar, should have a cry jar. People can just put a coin in that's like, yep, cried today. She's a harsh mistress, litho. 

Stephanie Alaniz  She is. But I love her. She doesn't let me get away with anything, you know? 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, yeah, there's people who pay good money for that. I think that one thing that is immediately striking about your work is that you are an incredible draftsperson, you are someone who draws quite well. Your skills in drawing, I feel like, are directly connected to your ability to do your ongoing series, which is called "Insecurity Portraits," because you can make the facsimile, the drawing of someone, so accurately, that they're very recognizable, and also alter it to the ends of the project. And you're using the skills that you have, I think, really specifically and really well in this series. But before we kind of dive in to some of the philosophies and implications and all of that, and that interesting juicy bit, could you just speak directly to what happens within the series?

Stephanie Alaniz  Okay. So I put a call out asking for participants, and I give them a PDF, and in this PDF, it explains that you should send me a photograph that's either frontal or three quarters view of your face, and then try really hard not to idealize your face - so camera above your head, or doing duck lips, or whatever you want to call them. So trying really hard to have a neutral expression, and then giving me that photograph. And then along with that photograph, you should include a list that you associate with your physical insecurities and a list you associate with your physical positives. And so then from that information, I render all of the insecurities in tonal black, and then all of the positives in tonal color. And then there are some aesthetic choices, like if the hair is just solid black, that's to help the tonal information read better. So accessories are the same way, like glasses or jewelry, things like that. And then anywhere that's not rendered is indifference. So when they're all placed together, then we can visually experience those repeating things throughout. And we can notice... and the other part of that is, some people's lists are really - like how everyone gives me this information is very unique and different. Some people give me literal lists where they bullet point every single thing, and others explain each thing and really reflect. And they write that to me, which feels really intimate and special. And I feel so touched by all the different ways. And so I thought that was really important. And so I wanted to include the words, so I screenprinted these 15 inch by 25 foot rolls of paper, which then get installed collectively to create a space. And so the inside is different variations of black, which is the insecurity, and then the outside is screenprinted the positives in C, M, and Y. And then the top is the least dense, and then as it gets to the bottom, it's the most dense and the most illegible. So each person has their own portrait, and each person also has their own roll of paper. So I'm actually installing that this January at the exhibition called 528.0 Regional Juried Printmaking Exhibition, which will be located at the Arvada Center in Arvada, Colorado. And the dates are January 16 - March 29. 

Miranda Metcalf  Excellent. Well, I will definitely put a link to all of that in the show notes for sure.

Stephanie Alaniz  So because I was in grad school, when I was creating the portraits, the insecurity portraits, I was asked why these weren't photographs, and why are they drawings. And the reason is because I like to, like I mentioned earlier, I like to experience empathy and connections to others and kind of feel and experience their own struggles or things that are good, all of the things. So I really like podcasts like The Moth and any kind of storytelling that's really deep and heavy hitting, because I think it's beautiful to go through something and struggle with it and then come out of it having persevered, I think it's super... it makes me really emotional. And I love that someone else's story can affect me in that way. And it makes me feel more connected to people. So this process of drawing takes me a really long time, because I use lots - I actually draw like a printmaker now. So I layer each colored pencil color the same way we would do layers of prints, where I would do my lightest colors first, and then I work my way to the darkest. So doing that is really time consuming and laborous, and I actually love to make work that is time consuming and laborous, because it feels really important. And I feel like I spent enough time with it. And I got to know it. And because it's people, too, I feel stressed out while I'm drawing, or anxious, because I don't want to perpetuate anyone's insecurities. Instead, I want to offer them a moment of reflection to feel like they get a chance to decide, instead of what society taught them to hate about themselves, they can have a chance to be like, 'No, I actually don't hate that about myself. I realize now that that was my internalized misogyny,' or things like that. And so when I'm sitting and drawing, I like to feel those emotions because it feels like I'm feeling what they feel when they obsess and dwell and worry and are concerned.

Miranda Metcalf  Oh, how interesting. Yeah, I could totally see that, with that fine precision of rendering that you're doing, you have to spend so much time looking at what they look at. And I feel like, with so many insecurities that we have, it's the kind of thing that, once we flesh them out, once we put them out in the open, the people who truly know us, they're always like, 'You notice that even about yourself?' Or, 'I don't see that when I see you, I just see you.' And to get into the headspace of that kind of repeating loop that people can be at when it comes to their physical appearance, in this particular case - although as we talked about earlier, insecurities can take many forms, but in this case, just physical and facial insecurities - do you ever find that to be a little bit hard emotionally? That you're kind of getting into a bit of that darkness by spending all that time with the portrait?

Stephanie Alaniz  I don't think so. I mean, I think it's because I love to feel emotional. I think that being emotional is super special. And so all of the music I love, and most of the podcasts I listen to, and even the television I'm watching is very motivated by feeling emotional, or sad, or sad/happy, you know. So I just really love that. I think it's really special. But I also like challenging my own perspective, too. And in the beginning, I was finding I thought things like, 'I'm so surprised that that's something they don't like.' And then I was remembering that I can't invalidate anyone's own experiences, and then creating the work, of course, challenged my own internalized everything. And it opened up conversations. And even though I've made limitations to it being physical, I'm hoping that that can be translated into someone's reflection on their own internal or emotional or things that don't exist in the physical world that they feel insecure about. I mean, it has for me, for sure. Especially with experiences outside of myself, as I will never know what it's like to be a person of color or a woman of color, and the struggles they go through. But for a moment, I can try to be understanding and then also advocate for them in any ways that I can, if that makes sense.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, absolutely. Because I think so many of [the] insecurities that people have, when you deconstruct it, when you take it out of the darkness and the obsession and put it out in the daylight, as you said, it comes from misogyny, it comes from fatphobia, it comes from a colonial perspective. And so I think that while everyone has their insecurities, as you say, the more of those "isms" affects you directly and your lived experience, the deeper [the] well of insecurity that society has given you to draw from. It's just really such an interesting project, because it really is bringing into light this idea that we're taught to hate ourselves for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that it keeps us with low self worth. So we don't think we deserve better in the world. If there's something wrong with us, we can pay money to fix it. So capitalism loves that. 

Stephanie Alaniz  Yes. Yes, she does. 

Miranda Metcalf  She's a hungry bitch. You gotta feed the machine. I guess it makes it such an interesting project in that way, too, that I think that a lot of times when we talk about insecurity, it seems so personal. It's like, 'Well, this is on me, right? I feel terrible about this, about myself.' And we can get thinking about it in a bubble. But of course, through this deeply personal experience, you've actually created a portal into so many different larger systems that affect the quality of people's lives, which is part of the reason why I love that project.

Stephanie Alaniz  And the other thing I wanted to mention is like, with the insecurity collective sculpture, it's meant to, when you experience it, you walk in and it's kind of a smaller space and there's wadded... like the ends are kind of crumpled and piled around the floor. Because they're 25 feet long. So as you walk in, you feel kind of suffocated and overwhelmed. And it's not that I want to make anyone feel bad. But that is kind of the feeling of being stressed out or anxious about an insecurity. And in my own experiences, and this is why I still draw myself a lot, and so a lot of the lithos I'm doing are still of my face, is because I'm trying to deal with my own fluctuating and internal fatphobia, internal misogyny, because I am fat, but I also have facial hair, and I try to remove it as often as I can. And that's exhausting. But it's also a natural part of me that happens. And so trying to feel comfortable with that and stop... and acne too. I have acne all the time. And there are days where I can't even look at people, because I'm like, 'All they see is my acne,' or 'All they see is my facial hair.' And when I first started teaching, I had this really bad insecurity that my students at the end of the semester would say something like, 'She needs to shave her legs.' And no one ever did. And I don't know if anyone ever would. But it is a thing that sometimes pops up in my head where I'm worried that people will comment on my outside-of-the-beauty-norms appearance, my unconventional appearance.

Miranda Metcalf  That's really interesting, I guess because it's really vulnerable space to be in where you're pushing back against beauty standards, against expectations, and still feeling vulnerable in that moment, when it's such a strong action. As ridiculous as it is, in America in 2019, to not shave your legs as a woman is shocking to some people. Even though this is naturally what our body looks like. Our body makes hair on our legs. It just does. It's trying to keep us warm. 

Stephanie Alaniz  Exactly. How am I gonna stay warm? 

Miranda Metcalf  How are you gonna stay warm? It is cold in Kansas! And so I think sometimes when people see particularly women who have not shaved their legs, or not plucked their dark hairs on their upper lip, or whatever it is, particularly when it comes to hair removal, they'll see it as, 'Wow, she's so strong and brave.' But it's also, I think, really beautiful that you can also admit and talk about how I'm making this statement at the same time [of], 'It would hurt me if someone was to say something about it.'

Stephanie Alaniz  Yeah, because it feels like someone else made that choice for me. I was told I should feel bad that I have facial hair, and that I have acne, and that I have hairy legs because I was born a woman and I look like a woman. And that's so frustrating to me. So I guess, in a way that a lot of women have done, I've reclaimed my body and try to be like, 'Okay, this thing is something I worry about, but I don't want to worry about it.' So let's normalize it by, instead of worrying if people are seeing it, just draw it and put it out there and be like, 'Look at it. You look at it. And now you know it's there. And now I know you know it's there instead of worrying if you do know it's there.'

Miranda Metcalf  It's interesting. For some reason, it reminded me that it's kind of within the context of the way we're perceived. I submitted my own face to the insecurity portrait. And what I talked about was the fact that I have physical differences in both sides of my face from an illness that I had several years ago. A lot of the way that it comes out is in the way it moves, like it's not super noticeable in photographs, but I can't close my left eye without the left side of my mouth pulling, my left eye can get squinty and small if I'm having kind of a bad day where the muscles are really tight, and this sort of thing. And I don't even know how many years it's been now since I've had it, coming up on a decade, maybe, since my face changed. And it affects so much about the way I style myself, the side I want to be photographed on, all of that kind of thing. And the people who, maybe I've even known them for years or months, and it's just like, 'Oh yeah, I have this thing.' The people who say they've noticed it are women and queer men. Straight men will almost always be like, 'I've never noticed that about your face.' And I find that really interesting. And I'm wondering if it has something to do with [them] almost being more aware of the male gaze and judging aesthetically through a male gaze [more] than those with it? You know? That these are people who are used to looking at themselves, and therefore, looking at other people, in a way that's like, 'Would a man wanna fuck this?'

Stephanie Alaniz  Right. Absolutely. And my project is inclusive of all people, regardless of their many intersecting identities. So I do have straight men, and even more specifically, straight white men. And I would say straight men in general, the ones who I've had, the amount of information they give me is usually really low, or it can be based on something they felt as a kid and not as much now. And that's the other thing that I think is important, is you can notice the straight men, compared to people who've been raised to perform as women, they usually have a lot less. And I think it's important that they're included, because that's an important thing to notice. I've also had some straight men who've told me that they really like the project, but they could never do it, because it's too vulnerable for them. And that always makes me think of this Hidden Brain episode called "The Lonely American Man," where they talk about men usually not being able to make friends as they get older, because that requires vulnerability and intimacy that they're taught to not have. And I think that's a big part of it, too. They don't want to share this information. This is private information. So it's got to be tucked away in a vault.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. I'd like to shift gears just a little bit to your work and how we're talking about these insecurity portraits that has to do with the way we feel about ourselves and the way that affects the way we show up in the world. But there's also a big part of your work that has to do with the way we're received in the world as well. And that has to do with the side of the your practice that encompasses the fat activism, intersectional feminism, that kind of work as well. And as we talked about before, you said you identify as a fat activist, and with the reach and the medium of a podcast, I know we mentioned before we started recording that there may be some people who have never heard those two words put together in that order. I'm hoping before we dive into that side of what you do, if you could just kind of give a little rundown for people who maybe aren't familiar, at least from your experience, what it means to be a fat activist and ways that people can be allies. 

Stephanie Alaniz  Absolutely. So there's a lot of information I think I could cover as a fat person, and a part of the fat activist movement, the fact that we exist in our fat bodies and try to do that as unapologetically as possible, is a radical thing. Because fatphobia is one of the most... fat people are one of the most hated people in the whole world. And then of course, like in all marginalized groups, you have the people who are the least marginalized and the ones that are the most. So that would be small fats, which are people who have accessibility to clothing and are able to sit in chairs with arms at restaurants, don't ever have to worry about either of those things. And then medium fats may be able to do both. And then you have large fats, and then infinifats, or super fats. And those people are our most marginalized, because they constantly fear that they're not going to be able to sit in public spaces, that includes airplanes and restaurants and anywhere else that a straight size person, which is to say, a non fat person, can exist. And then you have even more marginalization for fat people of color, and especially fat black people, especially fat black women, and then any of the other marginalized identities they may encompass, such as queerness or transness. So we, as fat activists, need to be advocating for the most marginalized and be trying to fight these systems that don't consider these spaces. So I prefer the word fat. Obesity and overweight are offensive because they suggest... well, obesity is a medical term that was meant to perpetuate fatphobia, and then overweight suggests that you're not the correct weight.

Miranda Metcalf  Right. That there can be some sort of standardized way to which weights can be given value in relation to.

Stephanie Alaniz  Exactly. And the BMI test is not correct at all. It suggests that there's a general way of looking at bodies and that everyone's body is the same, when that's not true. And there are lots of reasons why people are fat. It doesn't mean they're lazy. It also doesn't mean that it's your business. And telling someone something like, 'Have you lost weight? You're looking really good today,' is a fatphobic statement. And saying things like 'I feel fat' is offensive. Because you're suggesting that feeling - well, first of all, feeling fat is not real. You can't feel fat. You can only be fat.

Miranda Metcalf  That's not an emotion. Yeah.

Stephanie Alaniz  Exactly. And the other part of that is that you're feeling bad about feeling fat, because being fat would be awful. And then, of course, in all media, until recently, I would say - because there are lots of people who are standing up and writing books, like Lindy West, and Roxane Gay, and Jess Baker. And then there's, of course, the excellent podcast "She's All Fat." All of those things - and then Shrill, which is Lindy West's book adapted into a television show on Hulu. All of those things are creating positive media representation. But prior to that, anything you watch, the fat person is always the joke. They're the least educated, the most lazy, they're the ones who are treated the worst. Their entire existence is just for the bit. They only exist for the bit, and they don't exist to be normal people or just exist in a space.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, and [they're] never centered.

Stephanie Alaniz  Always treated like the ugly one, the best friend... 

Miranda Metcalf  The othered.

Stephanie Alaniz  Yes, always othered.

Miranda Metcalf  And I remember thinking about this, because we were talking a little bit about movies before, and where I live, we've got great friends who've got two kids. And so I'm consuming child media for the first time since I've been a child again, because you go over there for dinner and the kids watch TV after dinner. And it is incredible how, particularly with Disney, but you do see it across all medium, how the fat character shows up consistently, as you say, as the best friend, as this asexual foil that's almost always a character of pity in a way. And even if, I think at this point, this new media that's being created knows enough not to directly like have a "womp-womp" fat moment, for lack of a better word - or to directly use that character's fatness for comedic ends. But it's always like, oh, and they could never be the romantic interest, they could never be the lead. It's just [that] we needed another character for the thin characters to have experiences in relation to. And it's consistent, and this is things that are being produced today. 2019. Everything the kids watch.

Stephanie Alaniz  Yes. So I would consider myself - like the thing I watch the most would definitely be cartoons. I love cartoons. I like their wonder and the way they create these fantasy spaces that still exist in our real world, but the fantasy creates like this new sense of wonder. And anyway, the most revolutionary contemporary cartoon today is Steven Universe, which is written by Rebecca Sugar, who's a queer woman. And the title character is a fat boy who shows emotions and empathy, and she's taken these tropes that you would assign to women and given them to men. And Steven interacts with these characters who are nonbinary and queer female presenting characters who have queer relationships, and it's incredible. And it truly evokes... I mean, it just tells you being gay is okay. Because Rebecca Sugar talked about how when she was a kid, she considered herself bisexual and didn't understand why she liked women, but no one on TV liked women. And so she wanted to create representation for that, but also, she's not a fat woman, but she has fat characters and she has characters who identify as women who are also masculine, which I think is so important! Ah. It's the best one. Just check it out if you like cartoons.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't know if we have it on Australian TV, but I will definitely suggest it for sure to our neighbors. Thank you for kind of doing a bit of that labor that's just like, alright Steph, let's have you sum up an entire movement in 45 seconds on tape. But it is such a huge and important contemporary issue. And I highly, highly recommend reading all of the authors that you've recommended, and listening to the "She's All Fat" podcast, and do a deep dive on it, because it is essential. And again, one of these things that if you aren't exposed to it, and you expose yourself to it, it will have that effect that you can't unring that bell. You will start seeing the world completely differently. And realize how incredibly pervasive and accepted this side of our culture is.

Stephanie Alaniz  And the other thing it will do is, it'll give you a better life. Because now you can stop being worried about, if you're not fat, being fat, or if you are fat and you're worried about big fat, then accepting that. It's just an incredible resource. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because I think it's such a part of the water that we swim in that it's radical for people, particularly women, or people who have been socialized as women, but really for anyone, to let go. Like the very idea that you could let go of worrying about how much you weigh, or what you're eating, or moralizing the food that you eat. Or being comfortable being attracted to a fat person. Realizing that it's okay for you to love, and have even a sexual interest in, a fat person. Because a lot of times, people either won't allow themselves or will secretly date fat people or sleep with fat people, and then never talk to them again, because they don't want their friends or their family to know. Which is so incredibly sad, that you're allowing this conditioned thing to control your life. And then of course, the reason for all things that are bad is because of capitalism. They're just trying to trick you into diet cultures and buying these fads and things that are super bad for you. Any of the diets that anyone's doing is contributing to eating disorders, and it's no good.

Miranda Metcalf  It's no good. And I think that a huge pillar of this fat activism and recognizing fatphobia is accepting, of course, that diets do not work. And in a way, I guess, now that I'm saying it, maybe that's a little fucked, because it's like saying, 'Well, just because you can't do anything about it, that makes it okay,' which obviously, I don't want it to sound that way. Because I think that's not quite what it is. But it's this cycle that's completely feeding capitalism, that if you just join that gym that is $200 a month, and if you just buy that app that can count your calories, or that meal plan, or the fuckin zero calorie carb free noodles, or something like that, then you can be thin and then you can be happy and then you'll have everything you've ever wanted. And so in the way, talking about feeding the capitalist beast, it's the perfect fuel for that, because it is something that is unachievable, but we do not question how badly we want it. And so you can continue to [say], 'Okay, well, Atkins didn't work for me. So Whole 30 will work for me. And Whole 30 didn't work for me. So Jenny Craig will work for me.' And it's billions and billions of dollars going into the system. And the effect that it has on our bodies is physically negative. And the effect that has on our minds, I would say, is probably even worse. And in the end, our bodies want to be a certain weight, and it will fight tooth and nail to get us back to where it has determined is health for us.

Stephanie Alaniz  And the biggest thing too, is... and I know all of this sounds radical, but - and it is. It is radical. And there's nothing wrong with that, because it is fighting the norms. But my point is, you can't look at a person's body, regardless of if they're fat or skinny, and know what they are going through or what their lifestyles are. And again, it's none of your business. But there's a book called "Health at Every Size." So the idea that being fat is unhealthy is bullshit. And "Health at Every Size," or HAES, which is the acronym, is by Dr. Lindo Bacon. And it's a weight inclusive approach that they're trying to teach doctors and nurses and all of the medical field, because doctors have inherent fatphobia where they ignore a fat person who's explaining their ailments or their struggles and are just like, 'If you just lost weight, then it would go away,' which has led to lots and lots of misdiagnosis or death, in extreme cases, because doctors don't listen to fat people. Because they think they can just prescribe weight loss as the cure-all.

Miranda Metcalf  Absolutely. So all of that being said, you are a printmaker and an activist on several fronts. So why printmaking, particularly in relation to activism?

Stephanie Alaniz  So I think printmaking is the most marginalized of all processes. So therefore, she's perfect for activism and has roots, of course, in activism, standing up to governments throughout her entire history. So I think she's perfect. And then, of course, because of the multiple, you're able to pass more information out to the universe and the world. And then because we live in a digital age, we're also not limited to what the multiple was. So we can use it in more vast ways that push printmaking into being more than just this tiny box, into this grand, incredible, intersectional medium that can live in any type of making.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, and I think that there's also this element to the community as well, and how the print shop, in whatever form it takes, it becomes a great meeting place where people are showing up to do work, but we're exchanging ideas. And I think because of the nature of printmaking, as you call it, as a marginalized medium, I think it naturally attracts people with marginalized identities. Because if you grow up feeling like you're something other than the norm - and whether that's because [of] gender fluidity or body size or sexual orientation - you know that, you have it in your bones from a young age, and you kind of naturally are like, 'I don't want to be captain of the football team. I want to see what they're doing over here. What's to the left? This is what they're telling me I need to chase, but I don't think that's for me.' I think that people who have that natural inclination, myself included, they find their way to printmaking if they want to exist in artistic spaces.

Stephanie Alaniz  Yeah, so for me, and I think a lot of people - I'm not particularly, like, I feel alienated from my family, who are white people who are very conservative, and definitely strong misogyny, strong fatphobia, blatantly... although they wouldn't call it either of those things, of course. But very very low income and conservative white people. And I don't particularly enjoy spending time with them or feel very close to them. But for me, printmaking is my found family. They're so kind, and generous, and willing to listen and have really good conversations, and willing to challenge their own perspectives. And printmakers are so generous with their time and their knowledge and their energy. And I just feel so incredibly lucky and fortunate to have stumbled upon this. And it also helps that Ryan O'Malley cultivated, at TAMU CC, an incredible community that was huge and made me feel welcomed and loved. And then when I went to Frogman's Print Workshop, that continued, and then SGCI, and then into grad school at West Virginia University, it's just continued to feel like a warm and loving home. And I think that's important, especially for these marginalized groups of people who need a place that is safe and will listen and is ready to change the world.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, that is such a great point. That is such a great point. That it's not just, 'I want something other than the norm because I am something other than norm.' It's also, once you arrive, you get the message, 'We're glad you're here.' And that can be, and I think is, a really profound message for people who maybe haven't heard that too many times in their life before.

Stephanie Alaniz  And willing to say, 'I'm outside of the norm, and then you're also outside of the norm, but in a way that's more than I am.' And wanting to lift those people up and give them access to spaces, and they're being put in the front, as people who deserve to have things they would otherwise not be able to have, because of their intersecting, even more marginalized, identities.

Miranda Metcalf  And I think that that nuance that we're starting to come to understand about marginalized identities is so important and such a great part of the dialogue, where I think at first it was sort of, you know, people were kind of grouped together, and it was like, 'Okay, you're gay. You're in that camp.' And then that was it. But now, really because of the Internet, and because of digital communities, as well as the physical communities that we can build, you can understand that being a straight passing, thin, cis, white person who is queer is a very different experience than someone who is a fat, gender fluid person of color who is queer. And the way that you see yourself, but also the way that you are received, is going to give you a different life and a different set of experiences.

Stephanie Alaniz  Yeah. And Miranda, you're saying something important that I want to talk about a little more too, which is that everyone has privilege, regardless of their many intersecting identities. So I am a white person who presents themselves as a woman, so a white woman, who is in a heterosexual presenting relationship, but that doesn't erase my queerness. But those things are privileges. Those things mean that I will navigate life easier than a person who is not white and is not a woman, but society sees them as a woman, and is in a queer relationship. There are things that I have that make it where I navigate life easier. So therefore, I should be the person to stand up and say, 'Look at this person. Their artwork is very good.' Because otherwise it gets sleeped on, because no one is considering how incredible this person is, because they only look for people in their own spaces, such as white people, you know? White straight people.

Miranda Metcalf  And I think that that, as we - see, now, I'm feeling, I don't know, romantic or something about it - but you know, we're recording this at the end of 2019. So it won't be out until 2020. But I would think that as artists, and as activists, and people who are just generally trying to navigate life not being a dick, that that might be one of the themes that we take forward into the next decade, is understanding the nuances and the complexities of marginalization and the way our identities intersect, at the same time, and create different levels of power that we can use to support one another.

Stephanie Alaniz  Yeah, exactly. I think often people are not willing to say... like, if someone replies and says, 'I'm not a racist,' or 'I'm not fatphobic,' there's no way that's true. Because we grew up in a society that is inherently racist, and is inherently fatphobic, and is inherently Eurocentric. To say you're not those things is silly, because it's embedded in you. And so, instead of trying to deny your truth, recognizing when those things are just pinging you to think something and being like, 'Oh, I can't believe I just thought that. That's because of my internalized misogyny.' And it's not bad. It's just unlearning behavior. And so I think instead of trying to deny those things, recognize those things and try to shift them into being better,

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good point as well. I think that the dialogue, as of a few years ago, was, 'Look, you're either a racist or you're not.'

Stephanie Alaniz  Right. So like, don't think things are binaries. Nothing is a binary, binaries are made up. Life is too complex. 

Miranda Metcalf  That's what we're taking forward into 2020. No more binaries. 

Stephanie Alaniz  No more binaries 2020. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna call it. December 31, 2019, I'm canceling binaries. Well, I'd love to ask you, is there anything coming up in the future? You mentioned your exhibition in Colorado, but is there anything else that you're looking forward to in the coming months besides the final dismantling of binaries? 

Stephanie Alaniz  Well, yes, actually, I have a pretty busy winter. I feel really fortunate to have a lot of good things happening, and so grateful. I've been invited to Pentaculum, which is a residency at Arrowmont School of Craft. They invite people to be a part of this residency, and it's a week long where 2D artists work together in a shared space and just get to make the whole week. And I'm very excited about that. And then, of course, installing the show in Denver. And then I'll be archiving for Frogman's Print Workshop. So yeah, I'm very excited. And I'm getting to teach advanced printmaking at Emporia State University next semester, so I'm gonna get a bunch of the students loving print even more than they already love print. Or maybe they don't, and then they will.

Miranda Metcalf  And if they don't, shun 'em. 

Stephanie Alaniz  Yep. Don't even look at them. They don't exist. 

Miranda Metcalf  Shun 'em. They're non believers. Excellent. Well, where can people find you and follow your work and all those great things that you mentioned that'll be coming up?

Stephanie Alaniz  So I am most active on my Instagram, which is @bavarianbaby, which, I feel like it's a joke I have to share. If you don't litho, you may not know, but litho stones are made of Bavarian limestone. So I am Bavarian Baby.

Miranda Metcalf  Aw, I love it.

Stephanie Alaniz  I made that when I was in undergrad because I love lithography. And then my website is my name, which is stephaniealaniz.com. And you can email me at stephanie.analiz.art@gmail.com.

Miranda Metcalf  Beautiful. Well, thank you again, so very much, and I'm looking forward to sharing our chat. 

Stephanie Alaniz  Thank you, Miranda. 

Miranda Metcalf  Well, that's our show for this week. Join me again in two weeks time when my guest will be Tony Curran. Dr. Tony Curran is a lecturer in the School of Art and Design at Australian National University. He works collaboratively with printmakers throughout Australia to investigate the ways art, technology, and human relations intersect. You do not want to miss this one, print friends. It will be the first ever in person recording for Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) and my first ever interview with an artist who makes non figurative prints. And before you go, please do at least take a peek at the screen print postcards on offer as thank yous for donations of $10 or more to help Australian wildlife. Link in the show notes. This episode, like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing help from Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Webber. I'll see you in two weeks.