episode thirty-six | kill joy

Published 25 March 2020

Miranda Metcalf  Hello print friends, and welcome to the 36th episode of Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend), the internet's number one printmaking podcast. I'm your host, Miranda Metcalf. You may have noticed that this episode came along a little bit sooner than usual. As my way of showing you all love in the time of Corona, I'm going to be releasing an episode every week, just to help make us feel a bit more connected in our time of social isolation and online printmaking courses. And speaking of feeling more connected, I'd love to give a shout out to a PCL sponsor. That's the Print Council of Australia. They're a not for profit member organization that promotes contemporary Australian printmaking, including artists books, zines, and other works on paper. They also publish a quarterly art journal called In Print, which is one of the few publications worldwide dedicated exclusively to the graphic arts. To learn more about the Print Council, how you can join or submit to In Print, see their website at printcouncil.org.au. Printmaking forever, shun the non believers, join the party, but maybe through FaceTime for the next little while. I also can't let an intro go by without a shout out to one of our recent Patreon supporters, George Rickerson. Thank you so very much, George, for your support in keeping Pine Copper Lime (Hello, Print Friend) on those digital airwaves. You are the very very best. My guest this week is Kill Joy, and let me tell you, print friends, this one is a doozy. You will quickly learn that there are no small questions with Joy. We recorded this interview right when I was in the middle of the bushfires here in Australia, so there's some talk about the chaos going on around me at the time. But upon re-listening, I realized that it truly could not be more applicable to what's going on right now throughout the world. Our chat together is a bit of a heavy hitter. We talk about the systems in place that attempt to make us consumerist zombies, end of life care, and the destruction of the earth. But also the incredible transformative power of art, the mind expanding experiences of travel, and little children in Honduras befriending a frog in one of Joy's murals. So sit back, relax, and prepare to go on that inward journey with Kill Joy. Hi, Joy, how's it going?

Kill Joy  Hi, It's going good. How are you?

Miranda Metcalf  I'm good. Thank you so much for joining me. I am really, really looking forward to talking with you. 

Kill Joy  Thank you. Likewise. 

Miranda Metcalf  I've known your work for a few years now, and I've always been really, really drawn not only to your aesthetic, but your content. And I love how your work is so beautiful, and I feel like it gives just enough to add a bit of mystery as well. So I am thrilled to maybe unpack some of that mystery with you here today.

Kill Joy  That's beautiful, thank you.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. But I'm hoping kind of before we dive in, if maybe you could introduce yourself a little bit and tell us what you do as an artist just so, if anyone isn't totally familiar with you and your work, they get a little bit of an overview before we start talking about some of the bigger ideas.

Kill Joy  Yeah, so my artist name is Kill Joy. I go by Joy. Joy is actually my real name and Kill Joy is a play off of my birth name. I make prints and paint murals. I'm interested also in sculpture and puppetry and textile work. But my main medium right now is working with prints and painting.

Miranda Metcalf  So when you were growing up, can you tell us a little bit about that? And if you were always an artsy kid, or did you go to museums, or how did art fit into your life as a small person?

Kill Joy  Well, I grew up in West Texas, in Odessa. And there isn't really a lot to do out there. West Texas is just flat desert, for the most part. And there's not a lot of museums, there's not a lot of art. There's a lot of sky. So if you're in West Texas, when you look out into the horizon, it's about 95% sky. And I was really influenced by that. I was always craving to be outside, I really wanted to be around nature, because I felt like when you live in a desert, it sometimes feels like there's not a lot around. I wanted to see what was out in the world.

Miranda Metcalf  Looking at the work you do now, nature is really present in your work and animals are really present. And I'd love to dive into that maybe just a little bit later. But just so people know a little bit more of your background, so you were growing up in West Texas, and then did you end up going to school for art?

Kill Joy  Well, I have always been interested in drawing and in art, and I went to a magnet school and they emphasized a lot of art practice. So I started making books at a young age, which influenced me as an adult. And I was one of those kids that the other kids would always ask them to draw a dog or a rose, those were the two most popular ones. And I did start focusing on art in high school, I started doing a lot of art classes. And then I went to college. And then I studied printmaking at University of North Texas.

Miranda Metcalf  And so you grew up in West Texas, went to school in Texas, but I definitely associate something about your practice with travel. You seem to often be in many different places, but I know you've done a lot of work in Mexico. And I think most people who are interested in contemporary printmaking know that Mexico is, at the moment - and I think traditionally as well, but I think we're just seeing more of it now with Instagram and everything like that - that it is an incredible place for printmaking. So I'd love to hear about just your experience in the printmaking scene there and how it influenced your printmaking practice.

Kill Joy  I mean, to take it back to West Texas, there's something about west Texas that, when you're there, it's really slow, the rhythm of life is very slow. And in fact, the town that I grew up in, Odessa, is referred to as "Slowdessa." And so when I graduated high school at 18, I had a deep desire to just get out of West Texas. But because I was 18, I wasn't quite ready to just move out of the state. So I moved to San Antonio and I was there for two years. And then I moved to Denton, Texas, and I was there for about two, three years. And then after Denton, I moved to Portland, Oregon, and I was there for three years. And that was a big shift. Because from Texas to Oregon, the landscape is so different. And I always knew that the environment of where I was was influencing my inner worlds. And then moving from Portland, Oregon, to Mexico City was an even more drastic change. You know, Mexico City is a fascinating city. It's a world class city. And it has a lot of history. And the history there is very heavy. So when you're in Mexico City - Mexico in general, but particularly Mexico City because of its deep and also dark history - the energy there is electric. And even when I have been out of Mexico City, as soon as I'm in Mexico City, there is this surge of creative energy that goes through me, and I think I'm channeling the history of the land and the people there.

Miranda Metcalf  So when you're talking about that history and that darkness, you're referring to that colonial history, I'm assuming, and how Mexico City is built on the bones of Tenochtitlan, which was one of the places where you see European colonialism. Is that correct?

Kill Joy  Absolutely. I am definitely referring to that period of history. I think just in general human history, the human species brings a darkness, but also a lightness, to where they go. Part of that darkness is suffering. There's a lot of suffering where there are humans.

Miranda Metcalf  You know, we live in a time where there's still a lot of suffering. 

Kill Joy  Absolutely. 

Miranda Metcalf  But I feel like we can't even begin to comprehend what it was like to be a human 400 years ago, when that daily suffering, that kind of suffering that you would have in life, the diseases that people still had that you could catch, the loss of life, the loss of the lives of children, the uncertainty, especially as women, the absolutely no real control over your lives or control over the amount of children that you have, which of course, is extremely dangerous. And there are plenty of women who still live that in 2020, as well, I should make sure to point out. But as women who grew up in America, it seems almost incomprehensible when you really dive into the day to day life of the last few hundred years of what it was like.

Kill Joy  Yeah, and I think the heaviness that anyone who is in Mexico City or visits Mexico City can feel, it dates back to the beginning of human civilization there, even with the Aztec empires, and the way that they ran their societies. There was a lot of human sacrifice. And for whatever reasons they held in their culture that they had human sacrifice, in that time, but that carries an emotional legacy in the land, and the land remembers. And because we are just visitors on this land, we are able to tap into that ancient memory. So even from those beginnings, and then into the time of colonization, which just brought about more blood, more warfare, more unnecessary suffering, the land holds that memory and that history that, when we're there, we can't help but channel that energy. And it's not all dark energy. There's so much magic in Mexico, Mexico is one of the most magical places I've ever been to. And so we just channel the whole spectrum of universal energy.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, I think a lot of that human sacrifice was done for the earth, it was believed that that blood actually fed the earth. And so it would make sense that she would remember all of that, because it went right into the ground that the buildings and the three Michelin star restaurants are sitting on now in Mexico City.

Kill Joy  It's true. It's true. 

Miranda Metcalf  So sort of speaking of that colonial time, one of the things that I have admired so much about your work is that it is political, but not in a hit-you-over-the-head-with-this kind of political. It's not like, "Here's Trump on the toilet!" 

Kill Joy  Which, that stuff is funny. It's funny.

Miranda Metcalf  That is so cathartic, and it absolutely has its place. But I feel like the way you use visuals to be political has a subtleness to it. And one of the ways in particular, I was thinking about your figures that show up that have their faces in their chests. And that is, of course, the way that Europeans for hundreds of years thought that people looked like who lived in parts of the world they hadn't explored yet. Who would be sort of wild men, you know, quote unquote "wild men." And that image just instantly brings to mind all of these Eurocentric ideologies, and their views about pre-colonial cultures, and it's just such a beautiful and articulate shorthand for that. So I'm hoping that maybe you could speak to, is this something that you do really consciously, or does it just kind of come out in the way that your ideas express themselves?

Kill Joy  I have a political viewpoint, and that does come across in my work, but I don't feel that it's my place, as you had phrased it, to hit anyone over the head with my viewpoints. But of course, the way that I perceive the world and the way that I perceive humans in the world will come across in my work, because I think about it a lot. So for the themes that I use, you mentioned the face and the body, and these older themes that have been recurrent throughout art history. I do feel drawn in particular to indigenous art, because I feel that these tribal people... because of their point in history, and because there was such an oral history, I feel that the art made by indigenous communities is closer to the source. And so I draw so much inspiration from that history in general. First off, that these stories are spread orally, and then they're put into pictures. So to me, there's just less divisions between making that art and the source where I believe all art comes from.

Miranda Metcalf  What it sounds like, to me, you're speaking to is one of my absolute favorite aspects of art, which is its ability to get into the intuitive and to get into half remembered histories and feelings, and really bypass this analytical black and white. And it's just this super narrow slice of the human experience that we've all been socialized into, people who have been raised in an American educational system. And art and visual culture can bypass that.

Kill Joy  When I look at this art, I call it - I don't even call it "art," I call it "soul language." Because as you said, it speaks to intuition, it speaks to feelings. And human feelings are some of our greatest teachers, and there's such a stigma to having feeling, but feeling and intuition exists anciently within us. And so when I look at art that speaks to me, it doesn't register in my mind as art, I first see it as soul language. And it's speaking to me, rather than I'm looking at something that's created visually, or formally, or whatever art history books talk about.

Miranda Metcalf  This idea that feeling is somehow not a legitimate form of knowledge is so unfortunate, and it's something that we're fed and I think, particularly, as people who are socialized female, get fed. "Don't be emotional, you're being irrational, don't annoy men with your emotions," is definitely a message that we not only receive from society, but we give it as advice to each other, like, 'I know you're upset with him. But you know, guys don't like crazy chicks.' That kind of attitude.

Kill Joy  That's language that tells you to ignore your intuition. And definitely, as women living in this society, we do get told to shut down our intuition a lot. Daily, you know? Spectrum of emotions are so wide. And there is a stigma against darker emotions. But yet, in my life, my greatest teachers have been the emotions of grief, despair, fear, and especially anger. And I feel that these things are, they're expressed so beautifully through indigenous art. And the way that it translates. It may translate from a place of anger, or a place of grief. But when it's actually laid out, it's transformed, that energy is transformed, that emotion has taught the lesson that it needs to teach.

Miranda Metcalf  It completely shuts down this narrative that I feel like is very 21st century American, which is, the ultimate goal is to never feel bad, ever. That's what a good life looks like. 

Kill Joy  Which is crazy! I mean, that's just not the human experience. And we're not living this short life here on this beautiful earth to just experience the good things, because how can that even exist without the darker side of things? And so this exploration of emotions, of intuition, of inner world, that blends with my political ideology. And it just comes out to what you see on paper. 

Miranda Metcalf  And so when it comes to some of the specific imagery you use as well, you draw on your personal cultural background, which is Filipino. Is that correct?

Kill Joy  Definitely. I did start my, I guess you could say professional art practice, in Mexico. And I was heavily influenced by the graphic culture of Mexico, which is deep and strong and intense. And Mexico and the Philippines, they share a bond. They were both colonized by Spain. And there's a lot of similarities between Mexico and the Philippines. So I've talked about this before. I've lived in Mexico, Mexico City, for six years. And there's a difference between living somewhere and reading about somewhere. So if I'm in the US and I am studying Mexican art, Mexican history, it's going to be a very different experience than if I lived in Mexico and never even go to a museum. My understanding will be more full when I live in that culture. And I'm bringing this up because I've lived in Mexico, I'm familiar with Mexican art, Mexican culture. And as opposed to the Philippines, where my family is from the Philippines, my roots, my blood are in the Philippines, I visited the Philippines a handful of times, but I've never lived there. And that has always weighed heavy on me. Because I am so invested in connecting to my culture, yet I have not lived there. It drives me to research, to explore Filipino history, especially pre-colonial history when it would not even be considered the Philippines. So I think part of that, bringing Filipino culture, Filipino themes, Filipino folklore into my work, is this desire to explore where my bloodline comes from.

Miranda Metcalf  Do you think that you'll have an opportunity to live there?

Kill Joy  I have thought about this a lot. And I would like to spend extended amounts of time in the Philippines for sure. The way that the world is moving right now, I find it difficult to settle anywhere. And that's where I am currently, I'm not settled anywhere. And the idea of settling on an island when our world is expressing so much turmoil is a little scary. But of course, I do want to spend extended periods there.

Miranda Metcalf  That's really interesting, that you said being on an island would be a bit scary. I would almost think that it would be the opposite. You could cloister yourself a little bit on an island from all the turmoil. But maybe that's where the scary part is.

Kill Joy  No, that's the dream. I mean, my dream is to be on a Philippine island. There's hundreds. And to be on a Philippine Island in my hut that I made myself, that would be the dream. But then I'm also confronted with global warming, and the fact that Philippines is one of the fastest disappearing places on the planet, and that the Taal Volcano just exploded a week ago, and all neighboring cities are covered in ash, and just the realities of the destruction that the world is expressing that ultimately expresses the destruction within ourselves as well, since we are just another expression of the world. Even to that idea, there's a light and a dark side of it. We are burning ourselves, and we are just pining for war, and more and more and more, we are overcome with the infliction of greed. And that is definitely damaging the world, and we're using [the] verb "to burn," which is interesting, because while we are burning each other, we are burning the world, ultimately, fire brings about birth. Fire destroys, and in destruction and death there comes a birth. And so I'm hoping that right now the world feels crazy and scary, but hopefully we're also coming on the dawn of a death of the old and a welcoming of the new.

Miranda Metcalf  You just gave me full body goosebumps, Joy. I love what you're saying so much, because it is so easy to get pulled into this narrative of the immediate and seeing, here in Australia, Tim and I have been relatively safe with everything going on. But you know, we had a day a couple of weeks ago where there was so much smoke in the air that you couldn't see across the street. And so we spent a day sort of - I think it was actually just New Year's Eve, which is just a dark way to bring in that change - and we spent the day holed up in the house with rags stuffed in the cracks, with our housemates, with the news on, just waiting to hear if there was a fire near us. We had bags packed to go, and you're just sitting there waiting and looking at this dark orange sky. And it's a really embodied experience that is dark and scary, and it feels so immediate and confronting and inescapable. But when Tim and I were talking about how scary it is, one of the things I said, I was like, 'Well, you know, really, the worst thing that happens is we all die.' And it was actually kind of a comfort. Because it's sort of like, 'Oh.' Because, of course, when we talk about saving the earth, what we talk about is saving ourselves. The Earth is going to be fine. When we all die out, she's just going to start over again. And people who I've talked to who have driven through areas that have burned horribly here in Australia, even though it's just a few weeks ago, they said you're already seeing new green, you're already seeing new life. It's this idea that we get so caught up in this fear of this immediacy, and this darkness, and not seeing that broader worldview that's sort of like, if we're not advanced enough to save ourselves, it's like the earth is self-cleaning. That sounds so dark. But I don't know if that makes sense.

Kill Joy  It makes perfect sense. And, you know, what's happening in the earth, it's just a reflection of what's happening in our inner world. Our outer world only expresses our inner world. And right now, our inner world, with the system that is in place around the world, we are so disconnected from self, we are encouraged to be disconnected from ourselves and disconnected from source and disconnected from each other. And so how can you live in a healthy way when there's so much disconnection going on? And so that's acting up and being aggressive in greed, in war, in this constant capitalist gain and immediacy that you're talking about. When people want things, they want it now, when people want change, they want it now. But change is upon us, right? And with the burning down of things, like in forests, there are some seeds that grow into trees that they can not be sprouted unless they are burned. Unless they are opened by fire. And so yeah, it's a scary time. But change is scary. And change is happening.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, this is just the image that came to my head - in tarot cards, the card of death isn't a bad card. It doesn't mean doom and destruction. It just means change.

Kill Joy  Yes. Absolutely. I don't view time as linear. And so that means that I don't view birth and death as linear. Following death comes birth. And oh, god, there's so much dying around us. Which is scary, it's scary. But I think it's important within that fear, like, within the political and the social and the environmental instability, to keep in mind this idea of what a brighter future can look like. We have to have that in mind, we have to have something that we grow towards and not just act out of fear of what's burning around us.

Miranda Metcalf  And I think that decisions that come from fear are based solely on kind of an animalistic self preservation, which is inherently selfish as well. And if you don't have that hope and that wider vision, that's when you see people shoving other people out of the way so they can get in the lifeboat. But on a global scale.

Kill Joy  Yeah. And that comes back to the previous question, with talking about how my political ideology comes about in my art, is that the Trump sitting on the toilet, that stuff is funny, and we need near knee jerker art as well. Angry art can be cathartic to look at. But on the other side, we also need an idea for a brighter future, we need an idea of what a brighter future can look like and how to construct it. And that stuff comes before this modern time. That stuff comes from the source. And so that's where my symbols come from, and my themes and my ideology also comes from. So I mix these themes of found from source with my political ideology, and I prefer it to be uplifting, as opposed to doomsday.

Miranda Metcalf  I can definitely see that in your work when you say it so explicitly, because it's not over the top optimistic, peace and love, sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows everywhere. But it does have a lightness to it as well. It accepts the darkness and shows a bit of lightness, I would say.

Kill Joy  Thank you for saying that. That's something I'm working on in myself, is to embrace both the lightness and the darkness, and in that embrace, to find the balance between the two. Because you can't lean too much into one side. Because you have to feed all parts of yourself. That's what makes you a full human being.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, and that idea, as you said before, of there can be no light without dark. If you existed in the state of happiness completely, you would never know that you were happy.

Kill Joy  Absolutely. Yeah. Nor could you transcend to deeper levels of satisfaction and contentment, and true joy. If you don't have something to challenge or to juxtapose against, how could you even transcend into those deeper layers of knowing?

Miranda Metcalf  Absolutely. And it's that classic story of the Buddha. He's raised in a palace and he never sees, he's cloistered from death and illness and old age, back when he was just Siddartha. And he had to leave the palace to come to understand the complexity of human experience, and eventually go on the path to enlightenment, is to understand that.

Kill Joy  I love that you bring up Buddha, because I am reading Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse right now, and I read it... this is my second time reading it. It's just such a beautiful book on the journey of life. And you know, you're saying, when he was just experiencing being rich, and then he had to go to the other side. So he did, he went all the way to the other side, and had nothing. Had no possessions. And then he went back again and into the middle. And you know, you just kind of go to one extreme until you find your balance, and that's what the world is doing right now.

Miranda Metcalf  To use American politics as a microcosm, we finally get a person of color as the president, and then, oh, it seems - oh, that rubber band snapped back. I'm hopeful that it's the swing of the pendulum. And each time it swings one direction, it has to come back, it can't forever continue, gravity will pull on it, and maybe over time, just like a physical pendulum, it eventually will rest in the middle.

Kill Joy  You know, I think you're absolutely right. I think we've seen the trajectory of presidents throughout history, you know, it swings one way, and then it swings the other way. And then it swings one way, and then it swings the other way. And then everything that was established before gets wiped out. And then again and again and again, and then this kind of fruitless history is just repeating itself. So I do think in the coming times, the rubber band will snap, the pendulum will swing one way, but I'm kind of hoping that the pendulum just collapses in general.

Miranda Metcalf  Wouldn't that be... yeah. If we could just stop the ride and get off, that would be the ideal.

Kill Joy  Can we just like wipe everything off the table?

Miranda Metcalf  I'd love to ask you about, after we've just kind of done this deep dive on humans, I want to make sure that I have time to ask you about nature and animals and the place that they take up in your work.

Kill Joy  I've mentioned some teachers throughout this conversation. And one great teacher that I mentioned is grief. Grief has been a great teacher to me in my life. And the greatest teacher, perhaps of all, is Earth. Earth has so much to teach. When we look at Earth, when we look at the microcosms of Earth, we can see the whole universe reflected back in an ant colony, I love ants, for example. Whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed by what's going on in the world, or by my own inner world, it's nature that I turn to. So you step out into nature, you take a walk, and you can't really be in nature and be angry. And if you do enter nature angry, it subsides. Because you see your place in the greater scheme of things. Nature is the greatest teacher. And so when you have such a great teacher, and there is no perfect teacher quite like Earth, you honor Earth by expressing their teachings. So I'm interested in herbal plants and medicinal plants. I just did a whole mural featuring psilocybin mushrooms, because they are a beautiful teacher. And unfortunately, in the US, those kinds of teachers, the plants of power, have such a stigma, which is really unfortunate for people who believe in that, or who have not been educated further, because those plants have so much to teach. I mean, if you can go into a botanical garden or a curated garden - it's really difficult for me to be in gardens, it actually kind of... it freaks me out a lot to see such manufactured environments. But if you can appreciate a garden in Versailles or wherever, then you can also have an understanding that the whole wide world of plants, that all of them are teachers, all of them have something to offer and knowledge to offer that you can't find in a manufactured world.

Miranda Metcalf  One of the areas of the world that I'm really interested in is end of life care. I just always have been. And of course, one of the things that I think is pretty common knowledge now but just what it reminded me of is that when people are facing death imminently, because of course, we're all facing death every minute, but when it's really at the door, that experiences that people can have with, as you said, those teacher plants dramatically decreases anxiety about dying. Because people who take them and then particularly with some sort of a guided experience... 

Kill Joy  Oh, absolutely. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, like with some kind of a shaman or a guide, their anxieties they have about leaving this narrative of "I am my body, time is linear, I am only me," you know, all of these things that it can kind of deconstruct and shatter that ego of this self. All of a sudden, the anxiety about actually dying is almost always completely lifted. It has something like nearly 100% success rate. And yet, as you say, it's actually, unless under very controlled circumstances in a lab, it's illegal to do it. People are trying to rob people of that experience, which I think is just one of the cruelest things I've ever heard of. Particularly if someone just has weeks to live. What are you worried about? Like, why are you keeping that from them?

Kill Joy  Oh, Miranda, you just opened up so many topics, I'm rolling up my sleeves. The thing is, is that it's not a mistake, you know, that these teachers, these plants of power, they have such ancient and deep knowledge to bestow upon us that, that only they in their particular teachings can teach us. I mean, this sort of universal knowledge is actually already, it already exists within us. But the particular doors that these plants of power can open, they are the ones that open it. And the thing is that it's not a mistake that they're forbidden. It's not a mistake that these teachers that lead into deeper consciousness are illegal. You know what I mean? That's a whole 'nother podcast.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. I'm right there with you. And yeah, it's just... I feel like, yeah, the shorthand is basically just, if you let people tear down the the narratives of, "You need that big house, and you need these clothes, and you need your six pack abs for your Bali vacation for your Instagram profile, and never be alone with your thoughts, never stop pursuing, never stop needing money," that's not good for the powers that be. 

Kill Joy  Absolutely. Let it burn. Let those ideas burn. For sure. I want them to transform. And you know, that's something that I hope to express in art, not this perfect idea... not this idea of what even perfection looks like, or even what being an adult looks like. I say this all the time, one of my least favorite terms is this idea of "adulting." I don't even know if people use that anymore. But what does that even mean? What does that mean to be an adult? That you own your own house, you own your own car, your own television, all your own things. Everything is individual. Right? And you work the grind all day long. Like, is that what it means to be an adult? Because that's not what it means to be a human being.

Miranda Metcalf  This idea that somehow becoming a fully formed human means that you're following the rules perfectly.

Kill Joy  Absolutely! The rules set for you. And I think what we forget is that we are the ones living our lives, right? Like, why do we need our own everything? And the money and the six pack and whatever bullshit we're trained to believe that we want? The comfort of living in the US, it scares me, it scares me a lot. And I'm not saying that everybody is comfortable. But I'm saying that this lifestyle, this comfortable lifestyle that is promoted and violently sustained within the US, is terrifying to me. People get comfortable. People get too comfortable, and what happens when you're comfortable? You start to accept things that are unacceptable. And this is not even talking about the awful atrocities going on within the US, but also the atrocity of not choosing your own life. Of being told that you need this and that and this to be a successful happy person. And this is what your peers will look up to you for. It's really sad.

Miranda Metcalf  You know, you have to go to a school that you have to go into debt for, so you then have to get a job so you're paying that debt off forever, and this whole ecosystem that is always keeping satisfaction just out of reach. So you're too busy trying to survive to question the system. So you don't have energy at the end of the day to be angry.

Kill Joy  That's absolutely it. That's absolutely it, yeah.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. I'd love to talk about the way art fits into all of this, art as a communicator, and particularly public art, because while you do a lot of relief printmaking, you're also a muralist. While prints are so personal, you hold them in your hand, you keep them in a drawer, you hold them close to your face, I just love to hear you speak about working also in these kind of big public forums.

Kill Joy  Going back to my greatest teacher in life, which is Earth, something that Earth has taught me as being the creator of everything is just that, is to create. And to create is a godly act. And when you create, it is an expression of your own divinity. Creation is godly. That's why mothers are so divine, really, I don't know how else to put it. They're goddesses. Because that is one of the ultimate forms of creation. And so art is a mimic of that, is a mimic of the great creator, which is earth. And so, I bring that up because of something you first said about why we even make art, right. And what brought me into public art is kind of the similar thing that brought me into printmaking. When we talk about printmaking, you can't talk about printmaking without talking about printmaking community. And that's a really beautiful coexistence between printmaking community and the actual printmaking medium. And the same can be true for public art. So what brought me into public art was the community, and I really love the people who are getting down on the streets, because just like printmakers, they have something that they want to express, and they just do it. And I really love that self pace, that self taught practice of just wanting to get down and do it because you want to. Not because somebody is telling you that you have to do it, not because you even learned it in school - and I definitely have my own thoughts on learning art in school - but that is one thing that has drawn me into public art. It's people without any formal education that just want to express something, anything. And what's so beautiful about public art is that it's a disruption in the regular programming of buy, buy, buy, consume, consume, consume, right? Because when we look out into the cityscape, what do we see? We see billboards, we see ads. Everywhere we look, we're constantly being told that we're not good enough, that we need to buy something to be good enough, oh, just kidding, you're not good enough again, and then the cycle continues. And what's so beautiful about public art is that it's not about that. It's not about consumerism, it's not about selling you some bullshit product. It's just, you know what, as simple as somebody wanting to write their name on a wall to just show that at one point in life, they existed. That is why I'm so drawn to public art, because it is a disruption in the regular fucked up programming that we receive. And so when I do think about what I want to put on a wall, it's not that different from what I think about when I want to carve. Because ultimately, the themes that I like to talk about are cultivating your inner world, taking care of your outer world. And so that comes across in both the prints and the murals that I paint for sure.

Miranda Metcalf  And another thing that, when you're talking about the public art, is that it also breaks down this idea of access to art. You have to be able to afford to get into a museum, or if the museum's free, you need to be able to work a job where you can go to a museum nine to five, basically, or you need to feel comfortable in that space socially, and all these different things, whereas public art is given away. And, almost by its nature, ephemeral as well, 99% of the time.

Kill Joy  I love being out on the street all day, it's such a different experience. Truly, in fact, the way that I like to get to know a city is walking around pasting up a city. It's so different than when you're walking around shopping. But also, even being on a wall. Even being on a wall, being in the same spot for a few days at a time, you get to see what's going on in this part of the world, in this little corner of the street. All of the regulars, and all of the passerbys, and the different interactions that go on, and how people receive the art. And you know, sometimes it's not going to be received well, and it's in that person's power to go over it. To spray it up, pour a bucket of paint on it if they want, whatever. But it's so satisfying to be on the street, and to be interacting with the people who will see this art. One of my favorite memories, perhaps for my whole life I think I'm gonna remember this, is when I was painting in Honduras. We were traveling from village to village in the mountains, we were traveling with this indigenous organization. And one of the walls I painted was on the side of an elementary school. And so the whole day, while I'm painting, the kids are coming through, and they get to just talk to me and ask me, 'What is that?' I was painting a planet with a river running through it. And there were frogs along this river. And the reason why I was painting that was it because in this community called Rio Blanco, they were protecting the river from big government intervention projects. And the river, for these indigenous communities, is their way of life. And if you dam the river, then you dam their way of life. And so while I was painting this, the kids would ask me, 'What do the frogs represent?' Well, frogs represent life and they are bringers of life. And that's also what water represents. And when I was finally finished with this mural, one of the most grateful moments I had - again, it's a little planet with a river running through it, and then frogs on on the bank of the river - and when I had finished painting it, and I saw the kids would just pass by it every day, when they pass by it... the frogs were painted at kid level. So when they passed by it, they would like, slap the frogs as they walked by it. 

Miranda Metcalf  Awww! I love that!

Kill Joy  And it warmed my heart.

Miranda Metcalf  That was interesting, because I was thinking about this dichotomy of printmaking being personal and public art being public, but it's actually, public art is so personal too. Because you can interact with it, and because it's in your daily space. And as people interact with it, whether it's touching it in the paint rubs off, or as you say, maybe writing their name on it, it becomes a part of the fabric of that community, of the day-to-day comings and goings. And that's so, so nice and such a beautiful way to put art into people's lives who may not interact with it otherwise.

Kill Joy  Yeah, I think that art, in whatever medium it is, if it's print, if it's public, it does have the power to transform. And what's so amazing about public art is that - a print has the power to transform for sure. I have a print from Felix Vallotton, who, you know, his style is so graphic, it's so black and white. And I've had that since I was a kid. And it influenced me and it made me want to explore printmaking, right, and that's powerful. And what's so amazing about public art is that you can see just this space that, you know, people just pass by and take for granted. And then when you put something on it, you put an image, suddenly it transforms the space. And then because it transforms the space, whenever you're interacting in the space or just passing through the space, your thoughts are transformed even in the slightest way. And that's an amazing thing. Especially when that thing is not telling you just to consume.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, if you ever start to think about the amount of visual static that is dedicated to telling you to consume, particularly in an urban setting, it's boggling. It's just all nonsense.

Kill Joy  Well, that's why we're tired at the end of the day. You know? I mean, all of it is so deliberate. And that's the reason why the plants of power are are illegal, the reason why we walk through the city, and why are we so exhausted? Why are we so exhausted? Because everywhere you turn, you're being told to consume. Oh, I'm sorry. This could be like a whole 'nother talk. It's really easy to get into.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah. But I think the core of this is this really profound and simple idea that I've never actually come to before, which is public art, and art in general, is really so unique in that it is visual stimulus that's not an advertisement.

Kill Joy  Absolutely. 

Miranda Metcalf  And it's so rare. It's outside of nature, which of course, is its own visual stimulus that's not an advertisement, but in terms of something human made that you look at that carries a message or an intuition or stimulus, it's... wow. I can't believe I've never thought of that before until this moment. But that seems really significant, and part of the reason why it's so important to have art in your life.

Kill Joy  It's so important. One of my favorite... I particularly enjoy hitting up abandoned spots, they're fun. For some reason humans just have a fascination with ruins and abandoned places. It reminds us of death and our own eventual annihilation, which are fascinating themes throughout human history. But my hope for interventions within an urban environment is that, you know, even if it doesn't have a message or if it's political or whatever, even if it's just for the sake of being pretty, my hope is that it provides sort of a break from the normal programming. Even just like a fucking space to breathe, you know, in this super oppressive system that we live in. 

Miranda Metcalf  It's a respite, I think, that a lot of people aren't even aware that they need. Because you forget what it's like to be relaxed when you're stressed out all the time.

Kill Joy  Oh, god.

Miranda Metcalf  I think it's something similar for people who are cut off from art and cut off from nature. They're just in this heightened state of anxiety and consumerism and image and greed, and it's just... we're so dumb sometimes. Humans are so dumb and so smart at the same time, but we can just so easily forget what it actually is just to be a human. Without all of those trappings.

Kill Joy  I agree with you. And I think it's important to remember that we are smart. We're divine, we are expressions of the entire cosmos. What is more complex, complicated, and beautiful than that? But it does not serve the powers to be if you recognize that. It does not serve them if you recognize that your daily life isn't supposed to be caught up in the grind. And because the system is so perfectly tuned and cultivated, we can be dumb, and we can make dumb decisions. And we can make decisions that are are hurtful to ourselves, to others, and to the environment. Because that is what makes money. Self care doesn't make money. If we all loved ourselves, then there would not be this surplus of money and greed just flowing the way it is. We can only meet people with love at the level that we have given ourselves. We forget. And that's another reason why I like, why I am drawn to, soul language. To this art made by indigenous cultures who are not so far removed from the source. Because we forget that we are stardust. And truly. Not just saying it, like, 'Oh, you're stars!' Like, we are really truly from... we are all made out of the same thing. And that same thing is the cosmos. And man, we've forgotten.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, because you cannot make money selling things to people who already know that they're whole. I mean, to put it bluntly. Yeah. Well, I feel that I should wrap up, but maybe just to say that I'm so grateful that you are out there making work about this and doing it so beautifully and articulately, and with such heart. 

Kill Joy  Thank you so much.

Miranda Metcalf  And I feel really honored and happy that I got to share a little piece of what you're doing with people today. So thank you so much.

Kill Joy  Thank you. The honor is mine, truly. I feel so happy to talk to you. 

Miranda Metcalf  I would love if you could tell people, if they want to follow your work and your travels and your philosophies, where can they do that?

Kill Joy  So I don't have a website, but I do have an Instagram account and you can follow me @kill.joy.land. I'll be there.

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, and I think it would be remiss not to put the plug in that while you get everything that we've talked about, you may also sometimes get exceptionally cute pictures of an exceptionally cute dog named Spencer as well. So just to get a little bit of extra joy in your life, there's nothing like a smiling Corgi face. 

Kill Joy  Oh, see, you opened up another can of worms. Yes, Spencer is my 12 year old little man. 

Miranda Metcalf  Yeah, so I think that's more than enough reason to follow. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes. And thank you again, Joy. 

Kill Joy  Thanks, Miranda. 

Miranda Metcalf  Well, that's our show for this week. Join me again next week when my guest will be Ericka Walker. Ericka has been on my wish list since pretty much day one, and she does not disappoint. We'll talk about lithography, class dynamics, and the importance of being in your body. This episode, like all episodes, was written and produced by me, Miranda Metcalf, with editing help from Timothy Pauszek and music by Joshua Webber. I'll see you next week.